Question about 1984 Topps Football
hockeyguy
Posts: 312
This is my first post in YEARS ! After just being an avid reader, I decided to try to remember my user ID & password (yeah, it would have been easier to re-register).
Ok, here is my question (without trying to get into the PSA vs. BGS) ... Why do I constantly see 84 Marino & Elway cards with THICKER/WIDER than usual white boarders in BGS slabs ? Yeah, I know - there is the problem (BGS).
I've noticed alot of them lately, and many BGS 9.5's
Isnt there a size requirement at BGS ?
And I seem to remember way back, when cards cut from sheets would not be graded, or was that not true ?
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this
-Cristian
Ok, here is my question (without trying to get into the PSA vs. BGS) ... Why do I constantly see 84 Marino & Elway cards with THICKER/WIDER than usual white boarders in BGS slabs ? Yeah, I know - there is the problem (BGS).
I've noticed alot of them lately, and many BGS 9.5's
Isnt there a size requirement at BGS ?
And I seem to remember way back, when cards cut from sheets would not be graded, or was that not true ?
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this
-Cristian
0
Comments
<< <i>This is my first post in YEARS ! After just being an avid reader, I decided to try to remember my user ID & password (yeah, it would have been easier to re-register).
Ok, here is my question (without trying to get into the PSA vs. BGS) ... Why do I constantly see 84 Marino & Elway cards with THICKER/WIDER than usual white boarders in BGS slabs ? Yeah, I know - there is the problem (BGS).
I've noticed alot of them lately, and many BGS 9.5's
Isnt there a size requirement at BGS ?
And I seem to remember way back, when cards cut from sheets would not be graded, or was that not true ?
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this
-Cristian >>
The BGS 1984 Topps Football cards are ~90% sheet cut. It is hard to find one that isn't. As you noted, most show unusual borders. This is pretty well know and it reflects in the price they get. BGS 9.5 RC's go for 1/3 to 1/2 of there PSA counterparts. It has been enough for me to shy away from any BGS graded card that is not 90s or earlier.
PS: I am Mark Cards on the 1984 Topps Football registry, which doesn't really mean anything, other then I have searched 1984 Topps on eBay a 1000 times.
Clear Skies,
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
As for a BGS 9.5, the most recent one sold for $360.00 here. Picture is below. Check out the white borders.
If you could ever "get" a BGS 9.5 to cross over to a PSA 10, you're looking at a substantial profit. But I suspect that is much easier said than done.
/s/ JackWESQ
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>Very interesting. I'm not a big football fan, so I had no idea about this. I'm kind of surprised that BGS would allow oversized cards to be graded like that. This is the fist time I've heard of a PSA card being more valuable than BGS. >>
The only time I see a BGS card sell for more then the PSA counterpart...is if it is a modern refractor, game-used or auto. This might also be true for modern rookies...and what I mean by modern in BGS is 2000 and up. Perhaps it is just the sets I collect, but I find that unlikely.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Here's the link to a 1984 Topps John Elway PSA 10 that sold for $1,675.00. A picture is below.
As for a BGS 9.5, the most recent one sold for $360.00 here. Picture is below. Check out the white borders.
If you could ever "get" a BGS 9.5 to cross over to a PSA 10, you're looking at a substantial profit. But I suspect that is much easier said than done.
/s/ JackWESQ
Do diamond cut cards get graded lower ? Should they ?
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's the link to a 1984 Topps John Elway PSA 10 that sold for $1,675.00. A picture is below.
As for a BGS 9.5, the most recent one sold for $360.00 here. Picture is below. Check out the white borders.
If you could ever "get" a BGS 9.5 to cross over to a PSA 10, you're looking at a substantial profit. But I suspect that is much easier said than done.
/s/ JackWESQ
Do diamond cut cards get graded lower ? Should they ? >>
It depends on the card. That PSA Elway appears perfectly centered and not diamond cut at all. If you look closely, you can see it is tilted slightly in the case. The fact the cards can move around (even slightly) is likely the worst thing about PSA graded cards. However, while some have requested/demanded a new case, I don't really think the masses working on sets would approve, as it would make part of their set/s look different.
I have no problem with BGS (or SGC) and have several hundred in my collection. I just stay away from sets BGS appear to fall short in grading.....such as the 1984 Topps Football.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>The only time I see a BGS card sell for more then the PSA counterpart...is if it is a modern refractor, game-used or auto. This might also be true for modern rookies...and what I mean by modern in BGS is 2000 and up. Perhaps it is just the sets I collect, but I find that unlikely. >>
I know high grade BGS 86 Fleer basketball cards always go for more than PSA.
The best way to know, is to lay a square piece of paper over a scan of the card. Test each corner, by laying the corner of the sheet to each corner, and see if the 2 sides & corner of the card, overlay perfectly under the paper.
Kind of geeky, but thats the best way to test for tilted cards
<< <i>
<< <i>The only time I see a BGS card sell for more then the PSA counterpart...is if it is a modern refractor, game-used or auto. This might also be true for modern rookies...and what I mean by modern in BGS is 2000 and up. Perhaps it is just the sets I collect, but I find that unlikely. >>
I know high grade BGS 86 Fleer basketball cards always go for more than PSA. >>
Here are ALL of the graded 1986 Fleer Basketball Jordan RC's that were listed on ebay and still searchable in completely auctions, sorted by grade.
I don't see that "high grade BGS 86 Fleer basketball cards always go for more than PSA."
BGS 8 vrs. PSA 8 = Tie, although the 3 highest were PSA
BGS 9 vrs. PSA 9 = PSA wins, unless it is .5 from a 9.5
BGS 9.5 vrs PSA 10 - PSA wins
There were three BGS 9.5/PSA 10's listed. One of the BGS went for $4,100, one BGS went unsold at $5999.99 and the PSA sold for $5999.99.
One can say, if the card is .5 grade from the next step, it will usually go for more then the PSA counterpart.
One can also say, that the highest sale price in every high grade is PSA, unless it is a BGS 9, .5 away from BGS 9.5. (I keep noting the later, as I believe these are likely people buying them and cracking to try to get 9.5 (and a $3000-4000 profit).
Mark
PSA 3 $285.00
BGS 4.5 $300
PSA 5 $510.00
BGS 6 $345.00
PSA 6 $612.23
BGS 6.5 $380.00 - No Bid
PSA 7 $370.00
BGS 7 $455.11
PSA 7 $409.00
PSA 7 $409.97
PSA 7 $416.00
PSA 7 $430.00
BGS 7.5 $465.00
BCCG 8 $469.99
BCCG 8 $469.99 - No Bid
BGS 8 $565.00
BGS 8 $589.99 - No Bid
BGS 8 $579.00
PSA 8 $503.76
PSA 8 $555.00
PSA 8 $565.00
PSA 8 $582.00
PSA 8 $585.00
PSA 8 $596.89
BGS 8.5 $621.51
BGS 8.5 $626.00
SGC 92 (PSA/BGS 8.5) $605.00
SCD 9 = $975.00
BGS 9 $999.00
BGS 9 $1,099.99 Buy It Now - No Bid
BGS 9 $1,099.99 Buy It Now - No Bid
BGS 9 $1,480.00 (.5 from a 10 grade)
BGS 9 $1,524.00 (.5 from a 10 grade)
PSA 9 $965.00
PSA 9 $999.00
PSA 9 $1,037.00
PSA 9 $1,050.00
PSA 9 $1,087.00
PSA 9 $1,200.00 - No Bid
PSA 9 $1,249.99
PSA 9 $1,249.99
PSA 9 $1,275.00
BCCG 10 $1,499.99
BGS 9.5 $4,100
BGS 9.5 $5,999.99 - No Bid
PSA 10 $5999.99
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>You would be surprised how many uncut sheets are out there. I have a 81 topps and 85 topps baseball sheet, both with creases due to me rolling it up and moving it, now both are in Texas with my dad. I have seen 84 Topps Nestle sheets, 86 Fleer Basketball you name it its out there. >>
What is surprising is the AMOUNT of Elways & Marinos that have surfaced lately, that look like they were cut from sheets. Coming across a sheet or two once in a while is expected ... but a few DOZEN in a short period of time ?
<< <i>Its pretty simple, topps sold their left over uncut sheets to dealers most likely in the 80s. Someone had bought these sheets and is making BGS 9.5 out of them. Same thing with 79 Topps Hockey >>
Is this considered unethical or at the very least a little shady? To cut a card out of a sheet? It isnt a counterfeit or anything.
<< <i>Its pretty simple, topps sold their left over uncut sheets to dealers most likely in the 80s. Someone had bought these sheets and is making BGS 9.5 out of them. Same thing with 79 Topps Hockey >>
Too bad these dealers did not invest .50 cents into a ruler
so they can measure off 2.5 X 3.5 !!!!!!!!!!
Too bad BGS didnt make the same investment
<< <i>
<< <i>The only time I see a BGS card sell for more then the PSA counterpart...is if it is a modern refractor, game-used or auto. This might also be true for modern rookies...and what I mean by modern in BGS is 2000 and up. Perhaps it is just the sets I collect, but I find that unlikely. >>
I know high grade BGS 86 Fleer basketball cards always go for more than PSA. >>
1988 fleer basketball seems to do pretty well in BGS as well. A scottie pippen BGS 9.5 sold for 450.00 a few days ago and I sold one for 400.00 last year, My psa 10 of this card sold for 175.00 about a month or 2 ago and in PSA 10 most stay under 200.00
Same with the Rodman rookie I sold a BGS 9.5 for 400.00 not too long ago and picked up a PSA 10 for under 200.00
I've bought and sold many hundreds of 1988 fleer basketball PSA 10's and BGS 9.5's and It seems the BGS 9.5's outsell PSA in major stars and rookies while PSA would sell brtter with the commons, obviously this is due to the registeries, where BGS has a way smaller following for set builders.
<< <i>
<< <i>Its pretty simple, topps sold their left over uncut sheets to dealers most likely in the 80s. Someone had bought these sheets and is making BGS 9.5 out of them. Same thing with 79 Topps Hockey >>
Is this considered unethical or at the very least a little shady? To cut a card out of a sheet? It isnt a counterfeit or anything. >>
I wouldnt have thought anything of it, if it wasnt for the fact that they stood out as not being cut properly. There is even a current auction for a 84 Marino record breaker BGS 9.5 , where the seller describes the thicker white borders as being "TYPICAL" & how nice they look. I suppose THAT part is unethical.
Anyone know how a disc can get 9 for edges and a 10 for corners?
Edit add: If the corners were graded the same as the edges...which only makes sense to me...the card would be a BGS 9.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>This is my first post in YEARS ! After just being an avid reader, I decided to try to remember my user ID & password (yeah, it would have been easier to re-register).
Ok, here is my question (without trying to get into the PSA vs. BGS) ... Why do I constantly see 84 Marino & Elway cards with THICKER/WIDER than usual white boarders in BGS slabs ? Yeah, I know - there is the problem (BGS).
I've noticed alot of them lately, and many BGS 9.5's
Isnt there a size requirement at BGS ?
And I seem to remember way back, when cards cut from sheets would not be graded, or was that not true ?
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this
-Cristian >>
Welcome back
<< <i>From what i see, the PSA Elway card is sitting flat at the bottom in its case. The Top Left corner seems to be sitting higher than the Top Right corner, and it tilts to the right.
The best way to know, is to lay a square piece of paper over a scan of the card. Test each corner, by laying the corner of the sheet to each corner, and see if the 2 sides & corner of the card, overlay perfectly under the paper.
Kind of geeky, but thats the best way to test for tilted cards >>
I am the buyer of the Elway card shown and it was tilted in the picture/scan.
It is perfectly squared with no "diamond cut" at all.
I am more than happy with the card.
Link To Scanned 1952 Topps Cards Set is now 90% Complete Plus Slideshows of the 52 Set
<< <i>Here is the strangest subgrades on a BGS card I have (well, I just sold it, but it hasn't been paid for yet).
Anyone know how a disc can get 9 for edges and a 10 for corners?
Edit add: If the corners were graded the same as the edges...which only makes sense to me...the card would be a BGS 9. >>
<< <i>Here is the strangest subgrades on a BGS card I have (well, I just sold it, but it hasn't been paid for yet).
Anyone know how a disc can get 9 for edges and a 10 for corners?
Edit add: If the corners were graded the same as the edges...which only makes sense to me...the card would be a BGS 9. >>
the coin doesnt have corners, so an automatic 10 was assigned.
<< <i>
<< <i>Its pretty simple, topps sold their left over uncut sheets to dealers most likely in the 80s. Someone had bought these sheets and is making BGS 9.5 out of them. Same thing with 79 Topps Hockey >>
Is this considered unethical or at the very least a little shady? To cut a card out of a sheet? It isnt a counterfeit or anything. >>
Taking a sheet now, and cutting the cards out of it for grading is frowned upon, since the cards are not cut using the correct technology; not to mention the fact that the cards were not issued as they were meant to be.
BGS doesn't seem to differentiate between correctly cut and issued cards, and those cut from sheets by collectors/dealers in the after-market. PSA though, will not grade a card that they determine was cut from a sheet after it left the factory.
All the above does of course, not include cards that were meant to be cut apart by the collector (such as 1975-79 Hostess, 1950's Wheaties, 1920's strip cards, etc...).
Steve
<< <i>I think the straight edged OPC cards in BGS 9.5 slabs are the catalyst for Beckett Grading becoming irrelevant which should be the case in about 5 years or so. Clearly collectors are not impressed with the policy of grading sheet-cut cards and it shows. Slowly over the last 3 years, people have stopped taking BGS slabs as seriously as PSA, and the only people left buying BGS slabs are the guys that buy strictly modern (1997-present) and guys who are looking to cross over to PSA. BVG was a complete failure and I suspect that slowly over the next few years you will see fewer and fewer 80s and 90s cards in BGS slabs. >>
I agree with you to a point. I see cards becoming similar to the way coins are. You'll have two main grading companies (PSA and SGC), as it is in coins (PCGS and NGC), with a couple other companies (BGS and GAI) grading "problem" cards, or just being there at a lower price point for collectors who aren't looking for a top-of-the-line grader, or either don't want to or can't pay the price for the PSA/SGC grading .
Steve
<< <i>I think the straight edged OPC cards in BGS 9.5 slabs are the catalyst for Beckett Grading becoming irrelevant which should be the case in about 5 years or so. Clearly collectors are not impressed with the policy of grading sheet-cut cards and it shows. Slowly over the last 3 years, people have stopped taking BGS slabs as seriously as PSA, and the only people left buying BGS slabs are the guys that buy strictly modern (1997-present) and guys who are looking to cross over to PSA. BVG was a complete failure and I suspect that slowly over the next few years you will see fewer and fewer 80s and 90s cards in BGS slabs. >>
If BGS ever became irrelevant, the graded card hobby would be in REAL trouble. A lot of people have paid A LOT of $ for high end BGS graded cards. I dont know how collectors could walk away and feel ok about the hobby, if their slabbed investments turned into 1988 Topps Sam Horn cards.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the straight edged OPC cards in BGS 9.5 slabs are the catalyst for Beckett Grading becoming irrelevant which should be the case in about 5 years or so. Clearly collectors are not impressed with the policy of grading sheet-cut cards and it shows. Slowly over the last 3 years, people have stopped taking BGS slabs as seriously as PSA, and the only people left buying BGS slabs are the guys that buy strictly modern (1997-present) and guys who are looking to cross over to PSA. BVG was a complete failure and I suspect that slowly over the next few years you will see fewer and fewer 80s and 90s cards in BGS slabs. >>
If BGS ever became irrelevant, the graded card hobby would be in REAL trouble. A lot of people have paid A LOT of $ for high end BGS graded cards. I dont know how collectors could walk away and feel ok about the hobby, if their slabbed investments turned into 1988 Topps Sam Horn cards. >>
I don't think anyone believes they will be worthless. GAI graded cards are not worthless....just worth a lot less then PSA in general.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
What people have spent on cards means nothing. PSA 10/BGS 9.5 Jordan's were bringing 5k-100k 10 years ago and now are worth maybe 5% of that. Tiger Woods PSA 10s were bringing 20k-125k 10 years ago and are worth 2% of that. The market's gonna go where it goes regardless of what people did in the past. The fact that Beckett has both loosened their grading standards AND started grading sheet-cut tough 70s and 80s cards by the boatload has turned off collectors. The result is that cards in BGS slabs no longer command the premiums they once did and people have taken their business to PSA for 70s and 80s stuff. BGS also abandoned the registry which is one of PSA's strong selling points. I just don't see BGS being competitive any longer. What do they have to offer? If I have a big card from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s that I'm looking to sell, which slab will it bring the most money in?