SUPERMAN IN PINSTRIPES
hofautos
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I am really curious....What is the fascination with Mickey Mantle. I never read a biography on him..., or never really heard anyone talk about him that actually watched him play. I mean Willie Mays is "proposed" the better all around player. Mickey doesn't have any major records (not the hof record career or season, not the best career batting average either of his time. Slugging, both Mays and Frank Robinson beat him. He was the HR leader for 4 years, but heck, Killebrew was the leader for 6 years. He, was, however a Yankee, which must be a great percentage of the reason for his favoritism, but was there something else big that i am just overlooking? His character perhaps?
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He still holds the records for most World Series home runs (18), RBIs (40), runs (42), walks (43), extra-base hits (26), and total bases (123).
So that must account for his popularity, but being on a great yankee team line up must have helped get him there.
Was he considered the best of his generation, like Griffey, Arod or Pujols, or more a FAN FAVORITE Who also was an awesome player?
Even in checking out a few years early, he was an American icon.
Did Barry Halper really get his liver?
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Who was Mickey Mantle, or more precisely, what was it about him that inspired the fierce devotion of four generations of fans? He was handsome, of course, in the way high school heroes were thought to be. There was music in that name; even he said it sounded "made up." He was a country boy in the big city. He came along at a time when the TV set became the centerpiece of the living room. He was Superman in pinstripes. The eternal debate as to who was the best centerfielder in New York City, Mantle, Willie Mays of the Giants or Duke Snider of the Dodgers, was really no contest, even though Mantle personally deferred to Mays. According to Roger Angell, the peerless baseball writer for The New Yorker, "You watched Willie play, and you laughed all the time because he made it look fun. With Mantle, you didn't laugh. You gasped."
There was something more to Mantle, something all of us picked up from his most ardent admirers--his teammates. They would watch him come into the clubhouse (sometimes after a late night drinking), tape his legs from buttocks to ankle, then go out and hit tape-measure homers. Unlike the aloof Joe DiMaggio, whom he replaced at center, Mantle was generous and funny and self-effacing. Even in 1961, when he and Roger Maris were chasing Babe Ruth's home-run record, Mantle was supportive of Maris. "I'll always be a Yankee," he once said, and indeed, he followed the fortunes of the club religiously.
Though Mantle had been sober for more than a year, 42 years of drinking caught up to him on May 28, when he entered Baylor Medical complaining of stomach pains. On June 8 he received a liver transplant that outraged those who thought, incorrectly, that he got preferential treatment.
Over the years, Mantle may have lost several fortunes, but he never lost his sense of humor. At a press conference a month after the transplant, Mantle spotted noted collector Barry Halper and asked, "Barry, what did you pay for my old liver?" The prognosis for Mantle was hopeful then. But an undetected lung cancer began to spread, and on Aug. 4 he re-entered the hospital.
Last Thursday some of his old teammates gathered at his bedside: Whitey Ford, Hank Bauer, Moose Skowron, Bobby Richardson, Johnny Blanchard. "He's got a tough battle," said Richardson. "But every time he talks there's a laugh in his voice." Mantle was said to be especially appreciative of an autographed "Get Well, Mick" ball from the 1995 Yankees.
Imagine. Baseball's most cherished autographer touched by a ball signed by the current Yanks. But then, that was Mickey Mantle.
This might tick off all the Bronx Baby Boobers
Mickey Mantle is the most over rated player of all time! IMO
The stat that jumps out at me is he only had 4 seasons out of 18 where he drove in 100+ RBIs..... and he batted cleanup or 3rd on the Yankees for most of his career (easy RBIs). He struck out a lot for his era, had a sub .300 career average, averaged 29 HRs and 83 RBI per season.
After his 30th Birthday he hit over 19 HRs in a season only 4 times and 100 RBI's only 1 time. In his whole 18 year career he hit over 26 doubles in a season only once.... (and some say he was fast in his youth......uh, OK?)
I know he was injured alot, but stats are stats especially in baseball. Mantle might be the greatest "what if" player along with Koufax, DiMaggio, and Ted Williams
Heck....... Jeff Kent is over 2X the player if you take 100 RBIs seasons into consideration.
PS. If Eddie Mathews or Harmon Killebrew played for the Yankees, they would be Gods too. If Mantle played with the Senators, Twins, or Pirates, he would be an average HOFer at best.
I don't think any of us could truly determine what exactly Mantle "had", since most of us weren't alive or past the age of 10 when the Mick was in his hey day. The words on a screen cannot describe what a man of his stature meant to the Yankees.
And if so, why didn't Killebrew, Mays, Robinson, or one of a few others get the attention and love that Mick did? Were they equally televised?
<< <i>I usually jump in on this when some clown says "Mantle is one of the Greatest Ever!"
This might tick off all the Bronx Baby Boobers
Mickey Mantle is the most over rated player of all time! IMO
The stat that jumps out at me is he only had 4 seasons out of 18 where he drove in 100+ RBIs..... and he batted cleanup or 3rd on the Yankees for most of his career (easy RBIs). He struck out a lot for his era, had a sub .300 career average, averaged 29 HRs and 83 RBI per season.
After his 30th Birthday he hit over 19 HRs in a season only 4 times and 100 RBI's only 1 time. In his whole 18 year career he hit over 26 doubles in a season only once.... (and some say he was fast in his youth......uh, OK?)
I know he was injured alot, but stats are stats especially in baseball. Mantle might be the greatest "what if" player along with Koufax, DiMaggio, and Ted Williams
Heck....... Jeff Kent is over 2X the player if you take 100 RBIs seasons into consideration.
PS. If Eddie Mathews or Harmon Killebrew played for the Yankees, they would be Gods too. If Mantle played with the Senators, Twins, or Pirates, he would be an average HOFer at best. >>
I agree, I mean, winning the triple crown? People do that all the time, no big deal really. In fact I thik a couple guys just won it last week.
How about 536 career home runs (which ranked 3rd all time when he retired). I mean, come on...any joker can hit home runs, especially with just one good knee like The Mick.
And all those World Series titles? Just being in the right place at the right time. His all time record 18 World Series HR's couldn't have played a role.
How 'bout those measly 3 MVP awards. They pass 'em out like candy! There's like 5 guys on my block who've won the MVP award.
His legendary speed that earned him the nickname "The Commerce Comet"? Hell, no one here saw him so he was probably just some slow lunk.
How about him continuing to come back from injury after injury to help the Yankees win? We all know character and teamwork are over valued traits.
Some people in life are gifted with an unexplained charrisma. Mantle sure had it. So did elvis presley, Frank Sinatra, JFK, and others. He transcended sports. People wanted to be Mantle and be around him. To watch him come to bat...A big swing....a 500 ft HR or a miss. Just the same...you never knew which one.
Unfortunatley HOFers and all time greats are measured over 20 + year carears...well mantle didn't have 20 good years to give.
I missed watching him play...just classic games and highlights.......But even today his fans still talk. Pinstripes are forever.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
When mantle came up he was said to be able to get to 1st base in 3.1 seconds. THe fastest in the majors at the time. Thats's blazing.
Ricky henderson was 4 seconds for comparison (so was I when I was younger). Then I believe in his rookie year he hit a drainage cover in CF and was never the same.....his rookie year talka bout bad luck.
3 MVP'S......go back to the 40's, 50's, and 60's.........even the all time greats maybe had one.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I usually jump in on this when some clown says "Mantle is one of the Greatest Ever!"
This might tick off all the Bronx Baby Boobers
Mickey Mantle is the most over rated player of all time! IMO
The stat that jumps out at me is he only had 4 seasons out of 18 where he drove in 100+ RBIs..... and he batted cleanup or 3rd on the Yankees for most of his career (easy RBIs). He struck out a lot for his era, had a sub .300 career average, averaged 29 HRs and 83 RBI per season.
After his 30th Birthday he hit over 19 HRs in a season only 4 times and 100 RBI's only 1 time. In his whole 18 year career he hit over 26 doubles in a season only once.... (and some say he was fast in his youth......uh, OK?)
I know he was injured alot, but stats are stats especially in baseball. Mantle might be the greatest "what if" player along with Koufax, DiMaggio, and Ted Williams
Heck....... Jeff Kent is over 2X the player if you take 100 RBIs seasons into consideration.
PS. If Eddie Mathews or Harmon Killebrew played for the Yankees, they would be Gods too. If Mantle played with the Senators, Twins, or Pirates, he would be an average HOFer at best. >>
You're comparing his numbers to what are good TODAY.
Speed? Before his injury he was top 10 in the league in SB 7 times and top 10 in triples 4 times.
I can't believe that I'm doing this, because Eddie's a Brave but your argument for Mathews and Killebrew kind of go against whatever you bashed Mantle for.
RBI's....Mantle had 4 seasons above 100 out of 18 but was in the top 10 of the league for 10. Mathews had 5 out of 17 seasons where he had 100 and finished in the top 10 7 times. Killebrew had 9 out of 22 seasons above 100 but was in the top 10 for the league only 10 times.
Sub .300 Average? Mantle was one of the greatest hitters of his time finishing in the top 10 of batting 8 times and winning the batting title once. His lifetime average fell dramatically after all of the injuries caught up with him and he was still a .298 hitter. Mathews finished top 10 in batting twice and both times came in 9th place. His career average was .271. Killebrew doesn't even come close. Top 10 in hitting once with a SEASON high of .288 and a career average of .256.
Mickey finished top 10 in the league for OBP 14 times and to this day has the 19th greatest OBP of all time. He also finished top 10 in SLG PCT 12 times and has the 24th greatest SLG PCT of all time. Eddie finished top 10 for OBP 10 times and SLG PCT 8 times and doesn't rank in the top 100 for OBP and is 73rd in SLG. Killebrew finished in the top 10 of OBP 9 times and top 10 of SLG 11 times but his OBP doesn't come in the top 100 and his SLG ranks behind Eddie's at 76th.
Mantle struck out a lot? He was in fact a free swinger and finished top 10 in strikeouts 11 times and ranks 15th on the all time list. Here's your problem.....the other two struck out just as much. Mathews is 48th on the career list and finished top 10 for strikeouts 8 times leading the league once. Killebrew finished top 10 8 times and is one spot behind Mantle at 16th.
Award time.... Mantle won the '56, '57 and '62 MVP awards and finished runner up 3 times. He won the '62 gold glove as well. Mathews finished to 20 in MVP voting 8 times and never won the award but finished runner up once. Killebrew won the '69 MVP and finished top 3 in voting almost as many times as Mantle won the award...4 times.
Mantle is and was one of the greates players of all time. Sure, a lot of guys have put up better numbers over time, but just take a look at the progression of all sports. In football, you have Johnny Unitas who is often times called the greatest QB of all time. That can't be true considering the fact that his passer rating is 56th all time there are 6 guys with more passing TDs and 11 guys with more yardage, not to mention the fact that he ranks 7th in career interception.
Numbers can only tell you so much.
<< <i>
<< <i>I usually jump in on this when some clown says "Mantle is one of the Greatest Ever!"
This might tick off all the Bronx Baby Boobers
Mickey Mantle is the most over rated player of all time! IMO
The stat that jumps out at me is he only had 4 seasons out of 18 where he drove in 100+ RBIs..... and he batted cleanup or 3rd on the Yankees for most of his career (easy RBIs). He struck out a lot for his era, had a sub .300 career average, averaged 29 HRs and 83 RBI per season.
After his 30th Birthday he hit over 19 HRs in a season only 4 times and 100 RBI's only 1 time. In his whole 18 year career he hit over 26 doubles in a season only once.... (and some say he was fast in his youth......uh, OK?)
I know he was injured alot, but stats are stats especially in baseball. Mantle might be the greatest "what if" player along with Koufax, DiMaggio, and Ted Williams
Heck....... Jeff Kent is over 2X the player if you take 100 RBIs seasons into consideration.
PS. If Eddie Mathews or Harmon Killebrew played for the Yankees, they would be Gods too. If Mantle played with the Senators, Twins, or Pirates, he would be an average HOFer at best. >>
You're comparing his numbers to what are good TODAY.
Speed? Before his injury he was top 10 in the league in SB 7 times and top 10 in triples 4 times.
I can't believe that I'm doing this, because Eddie's a Brave but your argument for Mathews and Killebrew kind of go against whatever you bashed Mantle for.
RBI's....Mantle had 4 seasons above 100 out of 18 but was in the top 10 of the league for 10. Mathews had 5 out of 17 seasons where he had 100 and finished in the top 10 7 times. Killebrew had 9 out of 22 seasons above 100 but was in the top 10 for the league only 10 times.
Sub .300 Average? Mantle was one of the greatest hitters of his time finishing in the top 10 of batting 8 times and winning the batting title once. His lifetime average fell dramatically after all of the injuries caught up with him and he was still a .298 hitter. Mathews finished top 10 in batting twice and both times came in 9th place. His career average was .271. Killebrew doesn't even come close. Top 10 in hitting once with a SEASON high of .288 and a career average of .256.
Mickey finished top 10 in the league for OBP 14 times and to this day has the 19th greatest OBP of all time. He also finished top 10 in SLG PCT 12 times and has the 24th greatest SLG PCT of all time. Eddie finished top 10 for OBP 10 times and SLG PCT 8 times and doesn't rank in the top 100 for OBP and is 73rd in SLG. Killebrew finished in the top 10 of OBP 9 times and top 10 of SLG 11 times but his OBP doesn't come in the top 100 and his SLG ranks behind Eddie's at 76th.
Mantle struck out a lot? He was in fact a free swinger and finished top 10 in strikeouts 11 times and ranks 15th on the all time list. Here's your problem.....the other two struck out just as much. Mathews is 48th on the career list and finished top 10 for strikeouts 8 times leading the league once. Killebrew finished top 10 8 times and is one spot behind Mantle at 16th.
Award time.... Mantle won the '56, '57 and '62 MVP awards and finished runner up 3 times. He won the '62 gold glove as well. Mathews finished to 20 in MVP voting 8 times and never won the award but finished runner up once. Killebrew won the '69 MVP and finished top 3 in voting almost as many times as Mantle won the award...4 times.
Mantle is and was one of the greates players of all time. Sure, a lot of guys have put up better numbers over time, but just take a look at the progression of all sports. In football, you have Johnny Unitas who is often times called the greatest QB of all time. That can't be true considering the fact that his passer rating is 56th all time there are 6 guys with more passing TDs and 11 guys with more yardage, not to mention the fact that he ranks 7th in career interception.
Numbers can only tell you so much. >>
In the top 10 of this and in the top 10 of this and that...that doesn't amount to heroism.
I always knew he was great, but don't think he was the best.
Even the best player of this decade, would probably have to be Pujols, but I don't think he gets the "hero" title in the same magnitude....so top 10 really isn't the reason. I really was trying to figure this out, and I am sure TV had a huge impact on it.
Think about never having TV before, and now you have TV. I am sure Yankees were like everyone's favorite team, and now you could watch them.
The TV probably played a BIG ROLE in bringing people together. They all could talk about the Yankees games, and I am sure MICK was to the Yankees
as syrup is to Pancakes. The whole country was communicating about TV, and the MICK. The TV must have been a phenominal thing in those days.
I wish there was someone on the boards that could talk first hand to all of this? Anyone?
<< <i>
In the top 10 of this and in the top 10 of this and that...that doesn't amount to heroism.
I always knew he was great, but don't think he was the best.
Even the best player of this decade, would probably have to be Pujols, but I don't think he gets the "hero" title in the same magnitude....so top 10 really isn't the reason. I really was trying to figure this out, and I am sure TV had a huge impact on it.
Think about never having TV before, and now you have TV. I am sure Yankees were like everyone's favorite team, and now you could watch them.
The TV probably played a BIG ROLE in bringing people together. They all could talk about the Yankees games, and I am sure MICK was to the Yankees
as syrup is to Pancakes. The whole country was communicating about TV, and the MICK. The TV must have been a phenominal thing in those days.
I wish there was someone on the boards that could talk first hand to all of this? Anyone? >>
My argument wasn't regarding heroism. My argument was that fkw insisted that Eddie Mathews and Harmon Killebrew were either just as good, if not better. I don't think he was the best player to ever play the game either. However, I do think that he was the best in his day and while he was injury free.
Where I do think he amounts to heroism is hitting 18 World Series home runs, being a blue collar guy that the fans could relate to and the amount of injuries he sustained and played through. THAT is his heroism.
EDIT: HOFautos, go watch "Mantle" that was made by HBO sports. That will tell you all you need to know.
<< <i>Is there anyone on the boards that actually watched Mick play and lived the baseball appreciation life of his day?
And if so, why didn't Killebrew, Mays, Robinson, or one of a few others get the attention and love that Mick did? Were they equally televised? >>
Born in 1946 and growing up in New York, I saw Mantle, Mays, and Snider live (only once each) and many times on TV. In the 50's, New Yorkers all had a favorite team; as a Dodger fan, I despised the Yankees and all their players. Brooklynites loved the Dodgers, everyone else was a Yankee fan, and no one really cared about the Giants, which may partly explain why Mays is not as appreciated as he should have been. The Yankees in the 50's were winners, and there's nothing New Yorkers love more than a winner. As the team leader, Mantle received the bulk of the adulation.
As to the above quote, what would have happened if the Yankees had sent Mantle instead of Jackie Jensen (sp) to the Senators?
The NBC Game of the Week only went to markets that didn't have a major league team, so these people didn't really get to see any team enough to root for any specific player. World Series games were day games; with the Yankees in the Series so often during the 50's, Mantle was the player most people were familiar with.
<< <i>I usually jump in on this when some clown says "Mantle is one of the Greatest Ever!"
This might tick off all the Bronx Baby Boobers
Mickey Mantle is the most over rated player of all time! IMO
The stat that jumps out at me is he only had 4 seasons out of 18 where he drove in 100+ RBIs..... and he batted cleanup or 3rd on the Yankees for most of his career (easy RBIs). He struck out a lot for his era, had a sub .300 career average, averaged 29 HRs and 83 RBI per season.
After his 30th Birthday he hit over 19 HRs in a season only 4 times and 100 RBI's only 1 time. In his whole 18 year career he hit over 26 doubles in a season only once.... (and some say he was fast in his youth......uh, OK?)
I know he was injured alot, but stats are stats especially in baseball. Mantle might be the greatest "what if" player along with Koufax, DiMaggio, and Ted Williams
Heck....... Jeff Kent is over 2X the player if you take 100 RBIs seasons into consideration.
PS. If Eddie Mathews or Harmon Killebrew played for the Yankees, they would be Gods too. If Mantle played with the Senators, Twins, or Pirates, he would be an average HOFer at best. >>
Not surprising coming from an near-irrational SGC promoter. Always swimming upstream... To be frank, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. Mantle was one of the true 5 tool guys that everyone raves about. His talent was extremely rare. Of course, he did piss alot of it away but that only helps the legend nowadays No, he wasn't the best player ever but he was danged sure one of them.
I saw him play one time, in Detroit, in 1964.
The Yanks were visiting, as was I.
I was 13.
Since I live in North Carolina, that was it for me.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.