Updated: Heads up to Sellers that do not leave feedback first
sonoranmonsoon
Posts: 2,078 ✭✭
This thread is not intended to open up a debate about who should leave feedback first. There have been plenty of those. I am just letting sellers know that there seems to be several buyers now leaving negs for no other reason than the seller did not leave it first. Ebay does not seem to be willing to remove them Here is an example of one, I am sure there are many more. watch out Sellers!
Under the new policy Seller's are going to have trouble avoiding negs no matter what they do, but waiting to leave feedback seems to be an open invitation.
UPDATE: I just clicked the link to this buyer again. It looks like EBAY has removed most of the negs he left. Maybe there is hope after all!
Under the new policy Seller's are going to have trouble avoiding negs no matter what they do, but waiting to leave feedback seems to be an open invitation.
UPDATE: I just clicked the link to this buyer again. It looks like EBAY has removed most of the negs he left. Maybe there is hope after all!
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Comments
I always leave feedback upon payment when I sell, and upon receipt when I buy. I do find it aggravating when I get a note from a seller that they won't leave feedback until I do.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Edited to add: The negative he left on the 13th got him a negative in return, so he waited until the 19th to start his new negative rampage with impunity.
in his mind, he is actually doing important work.. lol
what a dumbass..
like this. MANY of the FB bombs have been removed.
The most successful argument for removal of such NEGs is
to state that "FB is voluntary and a memebr cannot be penalized
for not doing that which the TOS do not obligate him to do."
FB bombing is a TOS violation. Under the new scheme, buyers
who pull this carp will receive a "notice of policy violation." If
such a buyer gets FOUR notices in 12-months, sellers can
block him in preferences. (Each report of FB abuse is counted
as ONE violation, even if it involves dozens of violations.)
It is now best for sellers to leave FB on payment:
"Fast Payment. 5-Star Buyer. Thank You."
(The "5-star" comment is meant to condition/encourage the
buyer to leave high-DSRs.)
IF a seller gets a NEG/NEUT, reply factually and professionally
beneath the FB left for you. Swear words will cause the reply
to be be removed.
"Negative-Positives left as FB for buyers will ALWAYS be
removed on request of the buyer. Each time a seller has
one such comment removed, he is given a policy strike.
It appears that as few as ONE strike is enough to cause
a PayPal hold and a minus 15+ in Best-Match results.
A NEG-POS is considered ANY comment by a seller that
could be construed as a claim that the transaction was
"not positive." MOST buyers do NOT yet know that such
comments can be removed, but the bots are being programed
to find them and delete them; they are replaced with:
"EBAY removed this comment. Learn More."
The "learn more" is a clickbable link that further encourages
buyers to trash sellers.
This crisis can be survived, but it has to be fought with gentle
words. Cussing and screaming will not work.
By July, lists of buyers who have left NEGs in a seller's category
will be sold/rented. Such lists are worth considering for addition
to the BBL. The BBL has been expanded to hold 5,000 names;
previously, it held only 1,000 names.
EBAY is in a desperate struggle to regain/retain buyers. They
are not going to change their ridiculous policy.
T&S surveys found that the NUMBER ONE reason given by
former buyers for having abandoned EBAY was, "A seller
left me a NEG."
Bad sellers brought us to where we are. We can survive
the mess, but it will not be easy. All kinds of media -
print/blogs/TV - are picking up the story, but it will take
time for the outrage to reach critical mass.
On June 19 and 20, Donahoe will be picketted in Chicago.
A tent city is being set-up near the convention, and national
media is likely.
Sellers in EVERY country are working on the problems, but
calm and patience are the watchwords. EBAY will retaliate
against their opponents, so there is no reason to be a martyr
at this juncture.
Sellers who post on EBAY boards should always use a posting-ID.
This prevents psycho buyers from trashing your listings. IT does
NOT prevent EBAY from knowing who you are. (ALL computers
now using EBAY are given a flash-object. Changing EBAY IDs
does not hide your computer's identity from EBAY.)
Some of the comments are funny as heck, UNLESS they were used to destroy YOUR business.
Feedback Bomber
There is currently a lawsuit filed for millions in damages against a California buyer for negative feedback.
eBay has also been named as a defendant in that case.
NEGd sellers:
1. Lose FVF discounts.
2. Are penalized in Best-Match search results.
3. Have their funds held by PayPal.
4. Can lose their health-care insurance, if they are suspended or lose PS status.
MANY buyers think they are playing games and having fun. They
are grossly underestimating the resources that MANY sellers
can bring to bear. As a very litigious person, it means nothing
to me to pounce on anybody who torts me; LOTS of sellers
will be adopting the same policy.
Young lawyers would be wise to start listing "gift-cards," that
can be used by sellers to litigate against wicked EvilBAYers.
Seriously, considering the wide variety of people who sell on ebay, I'm surprised a seller has never gone "postal" and physically gone after one of these scammer buyers (especially the ones who add a false chargeback to the mix). I think I'd even contribute to their defense fund, lol.
<< <i>EBAY is in a desperate struggle to regain/retain buyers. >>
Pretty soon they are going to be in a desperate struggle to regain/retain sellers as well. With the feedback system now tilted against sellers, it's gotten to the point where selling on Ebay is just too stressful and too much of a hassle unless it's your full-time job.
And since most of Ebay's revenue is generated by sellers, this will eventually hit them in the pocketbook big-time.
I'm just one example, but whereas last year Ebay was generating roughly $50-100 a month in fees from me, now it's down to about $10-20 a month, since I'm now only listing a few things each month. Multiply that by thousands of part-time Ebayers like me, and you're talking about a serious drop in revenue.
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Their deals with buy dot com, wal-mart, primemediaking, burbanksportscards, general motors,
sears, overstock, and HUNDREDS of other LARGE retailers will make up for the shortfall.
Most of their money will come from PayPal in the third/fourth quarters.
Skype is likely going to be sold any minute.
EBAY can keep the charade going for quite a long time.
Collectible sellers are cutting their own throats, if they jump ship too soon.
This category could actually benefit, if old buyers start to return and new buyers are added.
EBAY is still the ONLY viable place to sell quantities of merch. NONE of the
other sites are at all worthwhile for most sellers.
Besides when you sell over 100 items a week leaving feedback becomes pretty tedious, that is why I use Auctiva to leave feedback. The way it is set up is it leaves feedback when you get feedback.
Any buyers i see with feedback that indicates this behavior are added to my BBL automatically
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I am perfectly willing to appease the psychos by leaving FB on payment.
Those crazies who actually do leave NEGs for sellers who do not leave FB
first, will have one less reason to NEG me.
As soon as the lists of NEG-leaving buyers is available for purchase/rent,
I will use it. The lists are broken into product categories. Collectibles is
the safest area to sell in; TPG buyers are especially "safe."
I am currently being murdered in used-clothes. It is MUCH worse than
I thought it would be. But, I ain't leaving.....no matter what happens.
One interesting way to deter the type of nonsense shown by the FB bomber is to have a buyer's premium. Once item is delivered, the fee goes to the seller. If you have to have a CC to sign up and you buy things only to neg..guess what, your card will have the charges on it
<< <i>Although the neg bombers are going to be a real problem until ebay tightens up the ability to make an account, this whole thing would not have been started if the sellers who did hold feedback back, under the excuse that a buyer has a responsibility past paying, would have realized that a buyer's ONLY responsibility is to pay on time. After that, he has the option to do anything he wants. What gets me, is the sellers who held feedback back, because the felt that if they sent a bad item, that they didnt deserve a neg if they replaced it. What happens if you have a seller who constantly delivers poor product and will replace the item only when complained about? A neg will alert everyone to this.
One interesting way to deter the type of nonsense shown by the FB bomber is to have a buyer's premium. Once item is delivered, the fee goes to the seller. If you have to have a CC to sign up and you buy things only to neg..guess what, your card will have the charges on it >>
I agree with you that this problem did start with the sellers, and now the buyers will finish the fight. Your idea of a buyers premium is an interesting thought, but not practical in my mind. If I understand you right, sellers would charge a buyers premium, and refund the premium after the buyer leaves positive feedback? Of course Ebay would not allow that, because you would be basically holding feedback hostage. That is a big no-no. Plus, even if ebay allowed it, most sellers would not employ the idea, making those that did, less competitive.
Still it is an interesting idea. I wonder if it could be tweaked a little. Perhaps giving discounts to happy repeat customers? (that probably will not work either)
<< <i>Although the neg bombers are going to be a real problem until ebay tightens up the ability to make an account, this whole thing would not have been started if the sellers who did hold feedback back, under the excuse that a buyer has a responsibility past paying, would have realized that a buyer's ONLY responsibility is to pay on time. After that, he has the option to do anything he wants. What gets me, is the sellers who held feedback back, because the felt that if they sent a bad item, that they didnt deserve a neg if they replaced it. What happens if you have a seller who constantly delivers poor product and will replace the item only when complained about? A neg will alert everyone to this.
I agree completely !!! As a buyer of raw cards, I always get nervous after I've paid for a card and the seller hasn't left FB. Alot of sellers like to claim their cards are mint to try and push the price, I usually expect nmt-mt in these cases, but when the card comes in and it's clearly not in the condition represented in the scan... Not all sellers are the victims here. Leaving feedback as a seller upon completion of payment, states you stand behind your product and description. That being said, I still think ebay's new FB policy suks !
Under your beliefs about feedback a buyer needs to leave feedback when he recieves the item PERIOD.. Not based on anything else.
It does not mean nothing about the seller standing behind their product to think that is just stupid. I leave feedback only when I get it, but if a buyer contacts me about a problem 99% of the time I refund and tell them to keep the item, most of my items are under 10.00 so arguing about it is not worth it..
Ebay should remember it's roots and the little guys; maybe this is just the fuel someone needs to start a viable alternative to FeeBay.
Let them have their buy.coms and GM etc.
<< <i>The new Feedback sysem is more of a real son for sellers NOT to leave feedback first. >>
Your attitude is probably very nobel nobel and abosolutely correct, unfortunately for every seller like you there was 2 that held back feedback for retalitory purposes. Now the buyers have the upper hand, it is payback time. Irregardless of how noble your intentions are, you as a Seller need to leave feedback first now. Sellers have little choice. 1 or 2 negs or nuetrals in any given month may give you a reduced search standing, and more importantly could freeze your Paypal account. I know this is hard for anyone to accept, but you will need to bend over and do the best you can to enjoy the ride until ebay comes to their senses. I have a little KY Jelly if you need it. There is some left, I have used most of it already.
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A message to buyers on how to best leave Feedback: WAIT!
Posted by Colin Rule on June 09, 2008 at 10:56 AM in Musings from Colin Rule | Permalink
I've had a lot of discussions with Community members of late about how the new Feedback changes affect problem resolution on eBay. Many folks are used to working transaction problems out by mutual agreement, where the buyer and seller work together to solve issues. In this vision, the transaction partners are like the guys in the missile silo where they have to turn two keys at the same time on different sides of the room. Neither one can do anything unless the other side agrees.
As everyone is well aware, Feedback works differently now. It's no longer a mutual system. Buyers can't receive negs from sellers, and buyers can't have Feedback they left for a seller removed, so the notion of resolving problems by mutual agreement makes less sense. For example, if a buyer leaves a neg for a seller because the item didn't arrive, and it subsequently arrives, the buyer doesn't have the ability to remove that neg. In the past we used the mutual feedback withdrawal process to de-score those errant Feedbacks, but again, in a one-way Feedback world, mutual withdrawal doesn't make much sense, because there's nothing mutual about it.
So my new message to buyers on how to use Feedback is: Wait! Do not rush to judgment in leaving a Feedback for your seller. It's always been a good idea to wait to leave Feedback, but now it's more important than ever. Feedback is now a set of one way doors, and once you pick one and walk through it, you can't retrace your steps. You don't want to make your seller frustrated and angry that they got a neg while they're still in the midst of working with you. Best to wait until they've met all their obligations before you weigh in with your final verdict on how it went. You don't want to have to apologize for jumping the gun and leaving a neg if it turns out that the seller did live up to their obligations and do the right thing. That undeserved neg will be a burr in the saddle for that seller for a long time to come, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Another key point is that once you leave a neg for your seller, you lose all your leverage in urging them to do the right thing. In fact, you may actually generate a fair amount of ill will, especially if you put them below the DSR threshold that gets them discounts on their fees. So it's vitally important to wait until the transaction is absolutely complete, meaning totally closed and done, before you pick which metaphoric door (positive or negative) you want to walk through.
Fortunately the language in the leave-a-negative Feedback flow is extremely clear. It asks the buyer to confirm that they've reached out to the seller, waited an appropriate amount of time post-purchase, and it makes crystal clear that once Feedback is left it cannot be pulled back. So no buyer can claim that they don't understand how the Feedback process works.
So how do we get this message out to buyers? Well, if only we made every eBay buyer read this blog entry we'd be just fine, but that's probably not in the cards. So I suggest that sellers push this message out to your buyers. Combine it with whatever messaging you currently have in your automated invoicing systems that explains how the rating system works and how the buyer can contact you if they have any issues. Put it in your shipping notification emails. There's no way a buyer can look askance at a seller who is merely suggesting that the buyer wait until the transaction is completely finished before they leave Feedback. Proactive communication and reassurance is already the best strategy for protecting yourself from negs, but putting in this "wait before you neg" messaging is just an additional layer of insurance.
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<< <i>A buyers responsibility does not end when they PAY.. They are responsible for reporting any problems that do happen and in alot of ways how this is handled is more important that actually paying. Sellers can and do make mistakes, how they fix these mistakes should be a factor. How buyers handle these cases should be a factor in their feedback as well.
Under your beliefs about feedback a buyer needs to leave feedback when he recieves the item PERIOD.. Not based on anything else.
It does not mean nothing about the seller standing behind their product to think that is just stupid. I leave feedback only when I get it, but if a buyer contacts me about a problem 99% of the time I refund and tell them to keep the item, most of my items are under 10.00 so arguing about it is not worth it.. >>
Leaiscard; I am not saying I do not agree with you. I am just trying to figure out how we can adopt as Sellers to this new situation that is before us. To survive we must adopt to the playing field, if not we have no way to play. Complaining does not work in the long run, because there are plenty of people who will adopt and survive without uttering a single complaint....a few will thrive. I guess it comes down to complainers versus survivors...which do we want to be?
<< <i>The net effect of all these changes to me is that I will sell fewer items on ebay. >>
Think carefully first. Here is a scenario to look at. Ebay raises fees, Ebay changes feedback rules. Sellers get mad, sellers leave. Ebay's new policies benifit buyers, buyers stay. Result: Less Sellers, more buyers. Do you really want to NOT be a seller now?
Sellers do not have a true alternative right now, because every wanna-be auction site caters to the seller, not the buyer. Why do we not switch to those sites? Because there are no buyers. Think about it. Not much different that the obvious stock market statement: Buy low sell high. Seems obvious, but Ebay sellers that jump ship now are basically thinking , sell low, buy high.
It just has gotten to the point where it is not worth it for part time sellers like me to sell that much anymore. I will still sell items, but much fewer than before. There is no way for me as a seller to filter out bad buyers, so the risk is not worth it.
<< <i>sonoranmonsoon - I see your point. You're right that there is no viable alternative to ebay if you are a seller. Naxcom is the closest, but their rules are no better than ebays.
It just has gotten to the point where it is not worth it for part time sellers like me to sell that much anymore. I will still sell items, but much fewer than before. There is no way for me as a seller to filter out bad buyers, so the risk is not worth it. >>
Ndleo; I do not know your situation, nor will I assume to, but a few thoughts anyway. Do you really feel the need to filter out bad buyers that much? I know on this forum we hear a lot about it, but it is a bit skewed. Seldom does anyone post about a successful transaction, they only alert people to the bad ones. I am guilty of this also. It is kind of like the nightly news. It ain't news unless it is bad. So we end up thinking bad deals are a higher percentage than they really are. I have about 2-5 deals per 1000 that go bad, and I do not try to filter anyone. This is a number I can live with. I think there are several people one this board that do more transactions than me would give you similar numbers (maybe not).
It is not any different than other businesses. Think about retail outlets. Do you ever think about how many times they have to deal with shoplifters, burglaries, and theft at gun point. In many cases it is much more than we face with bad feedback, or cheats on ebay. And talk about fees, rent at a top local mall is much higher than ebay, yet ebay is the top mall of the internet (with more traffic). Ebay is still cheaper in terms of cost/sale for rent. Business is business. Background noise is background noise.
<< <i>I'm getting tired of all the reminders popping up on Ebay about how I should leave honest feedback with no fear of getting a negative in return. I'm waiting for a series of confirmation screens to pop up after you select positive. Are you sure you want to leave a positive? Yes. Then another. You do realize you can leave a negative with no fear of retaliation, certainly the seller did something wrong. How was his spelling? This is your last chance to change your mind to a nice red juicy negative. >>
LOL, LOL, LOL.....sounds funny but next month it will probably happen......stil funny though LOL, LOL
It is clear that ebay is trying to get rid of the part-time seller. I don't know why they would want to do that, maybe they don't make enough money on us. Or maybe they want to raise prices on ebay so that their cut gets bigger. Like you said Fewer dealers = Higher prices.
<< <i>I'm already seeing an increased number of NPB and slow payers. The fee increase was the first kick and the feedback changes is the second kick. The margins on ebay don't allow me to raise the cost to make up the difference.
It is clear that ebay is trying to get rid of the part-time seller. I don't know why they would want to do that, maybe they don't make enough money on us. Or maybe they want to raise prices on ebay so that their cut gets bigger. Like you said Fewer dealers = Higher prices. >>
You bring up two interesting points.
1) slow payers..... I have noticed payments coming in a bit slower recently. That does not bother me too much. I am used to the old days (5-9 years ago) when payments showed up on average about a week or so after the close of sale. Payments within 24 hours is something we have gotten used to over the last few years. I can live with the delay. If I remember right there were more non-pays in the old days also. I survived with it then and probably will now.
2) Ebay trying to get rid of part timers..... We do not provide enough income for the expenses we cause ebay. ie...we whine to much LOL. I have to agree with you on this one. Storm mentioned that scenario in a thread a few weeks ago. I did not think about it until he brought it up, but his thoughts seem to becoming reality quicker than we realize. I was hanging out in ebay.UK chatrooms yesterday (for lack of anything else to do); the big talk there was Ebay was going to start requiring all sellers to have legitimate business licenses to sell on ebay.UK (not sure what that entails in the UK). Ebay likes to test this stuff in smaller markets before nailing the US market (similar to the PayPal only deal on Ebay. Australia) Add to that the following: Ebay is allowing some huge retailers to sell core listings in large quantities,at a discount to what we pay (ebid comes to mind); makes one wonder. If Ebay is indeed trying to fill their high rent mall with huge companies, at the expense of the little guy; then all the new policies start to make sense. Yes we hear a lot of crying and whining about it, but it falls on deaf ears at ebay. Many of us want to think they are idiots, fools, and will run themselves into the ground over the recent changes. Nothing is farther from the truth. They know exactly what they are doing. Ebay feels they have outgrown the little guy, want us out, and make room for the big dogs. We can whine and cry all the way to the gallows, it will make no difference in a few years. Learn to adopt, bow out, or face execution. Those seem to be the choices we will be facing with ebay soon. Choose one.
but I have not figured out exactly how they can make money.
Their sell-through rate is in the toilet; way less than 5%, maybe
only 1% to 3%.
Their own sites ALL have MUCH cheaper prices than those they
offer on EBAY.
"Stuff is cheap on the buy.com site, let's go buy the same stuff
at much higher prices from the BUY store on EBAY."
I don't think so.
The S+H at primemedia is OUTRAGEOUS. Books go for pennies,
and the S+H is a MONSTER. That's good for them, not good for EBAY.
I think collectible sellers are fairly safe; if they can avoid the extortion
and the plunging FB#s.
The BIN concept is something that EBAY is committed to. If you look
at some of primemedia's and BUY's listings, you will note "immediate
payment required." (They have a combined invoice at PayPal that
can be printed to INCLUDE many unique purchases from the same
buyer. Stores may also get some kind of "shopping cart," that
allows immediate-payment BUT let's the buyer grab a bunch of
stuff and make one payment. This is the weak spot, currently:
Multiple purchases are discouraged/lost, by immediate payment.)
The "combined invoice" is critical to sellers NOT only because
of lost-multiples, BUT because of "seller protection" at PayPal.
Single invoices are supposed to be shipped individually; that
will not work for multiple-item buys.
BIN IPR gets rid of UID totally. It is the future of EBAY.
EBAY will make a new "strip-mall/flea-market" for auctions.
Everybody will have a store. It will NOT be searchable from
the main site. You will feed the CORE in the main-site with
merch from your store/warehouse. Those listings will have
links back to YOUR STORE. (The Italy experiment marches on.)
It will take money to play the new EBAY game. If you cannot afford
to fund your shipping/inventory, while PayPal holds your cash,
you will be excluded from the contest.
Innovative Disruption is underway.
Fire Donahoe, or move where his nonsense leads you.
<< <i>So how do we get this message out to buyers? Well, if only we made every eBay buyer read this blog entry we'd be just fine >>
They could put that on the "leave feedback" page where they put the annoying popup letting buyers (essentially begging them) to leave a neg as they can't get one in return.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
EBAY now gains financially each time a seller's FB and DSRs take a hit.
They like things just like they are.
Lawsuits coming soon.
On the flip side, I haven't seen a improvement on the seller's side when I buy. I don't know what ebay accomplished with all these changes.
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So far, ALL they did was PO the good sellers.
Not Happy
I guess this is what I picture most scamming buyers to look like.