Tampered Rack Packs?

proofer2 · January 13, 2008 1:08PM

Can rack packs be tampered with (i.e. unopened and "resealed") like wax packs can? If so, how is this possible? I would appreciate any expertise on this subject. Thanks!

Ricky

Leiascards · January 13, 2008 1:56PM

Normally cannot be tampered with, but in the 80s there were lists out there that you could look at the cards on top and tell excatly who was in the packs. I am sure these lists are still out there

spazzy · January 14, 2008 3:53AM

Yes, They can be tampered with. There are many 1968, 69,70 and 71 bb rack packs out there that are tampered with. Some were even graded. Basically, one or two pockets or all three are seperated open and then trimmed and then resealed with a sandwich type sealing machine. Look closely since the tampered rack may have a seal that looks like different on the top than the bottom. And yes, wax trays were possible to reseal by remelting carefully on the ends of the cello end to end.

proofer2 · January 14, 2008 6:31AM

Thank you very much for this information. Actually, the reason I'm asking is because there is an ebay seller from which I bought a wax box once in the past (and was burned) who's now selling rack packs with some pretty big stars on the front (1975) and a plain 1971 pack as well. I would never buy from him regardless, but I'm just wondering if he's now resorted to tampering with rack packs...

gemint · January 14, 2008 7:39AM

The other thing you have to worry about is the potential to flip through the cards inside the pockets. Some racks had enough space that the cards had enough play to sift through them. Look for signs of stretched plastic along the edges of the cards.

WinPitcher · January 14, 2008 8:19AM

What gemint said is correct and is what i would be most worried about.

Steve

summerof68 · January 14, 2008 10:05AM

I too had big suspicions when I saw those two '75 bb raks on ebay. What are the odds that one rak would have 3 big time hall-of-famers showing on top and F. Robinson showing on bottom. 4 all-time greats showing out of a possible 6 spaces? So I immediately looked at the aging of the cellophane... and lo and behold the cellophane looks perfectly new and clear with no obvious "curling" or "yellowing". All three of the characteristics are most common on pre '77 raks. Plus the seller is making this a "user ID kept private" auction. This eliminates the chance of any ebay member warning the current high bidder of possible wrong doing. Taking into account what you said about your previous negative experience with the seller I am definitely staying away from both these raks..... As a footnote I read a book by "Mr. Mint" Al Rosen who stated he was personally aware of instances of someone who was expert at opening '85 Donruss bb raks and inserting a Clemens rookie on top to increase the value of the rak. Back in the days of my childhood baseball cards were a "hobby". Now its a "business" and with all businesses there enters alot of unethical people.....especially in todays society!

grote15 · January 14, 2008 10:24AM

I too had big suspicions when I saw those two '75 bb raks on ebay. What are the odds that one rak would have 3 big time hall-of-famers showing on top and F. Robinson showing on bottom. 4 all-time greats showing out of a possible 6 spaces?

None. Header card is also on wrong side. Stay away!!

proofer2 · January 14, 2008 10:53AM

Yea, I agree with summerof68. The odds are extremely remote that that many stars would adorn the pack.

proofer2 · January 14, 2008 11:00AM

Well, I think I'm the reason he has made bidder id's private. I was actually able to squeeze $1,500 from him (out of $1,800 I paid for the fake box) by threatining mail fraud and exposing his "alter ego"...sellonesellall. This kind of stuff pisses me off in several ways. One, he taints the uponened market (obviously) and two, it gives the impression that there is more unopened product actually out there (i.e. supply vs. demand). I'd really like to expose this guy...

grote15 · January 14, 2008 11:38AM

He is a notorious resealer. Guys like him are very damaging to the hobby because honest buyers unwiitingly purchase his garbage and may sell it themselves down the road. Very few buyers actually open these packs (the resealers bank on this fact), so they have no idea. I'm glad you got most of your $$ back proofer2. Nice touch exposing "sellonesellall" aka wax pack wrapper and lots of NM card buyer...pathetic.

milbroco · January 14, 2008 11:58AM

Can someone post a link to the auction. I would like to be able to view the pack to see what to look for.
Thanks,
Bob

vintagetoppsguy · January 14, 2008 12:15PM

Too good to be true!

11235813 · January 14, 2008 3:23PM

So is it safe to assume that all the unopened material this guy is listing this week is fake?

He's got a 1986 Topps FB Grocery Rack with two Steve Young RC's on top (how do you fake a grocery rack?), a 1983 Topps rack with two Sandberg RC's (this one actually looks suspicious since the cards are facing the wrong way), a 1982 rack with two Ripken RC's (also looks suspicious), and a 1980 Super Cello with a Henderson RC on top (how do you fake this pack given the odd sized wrapper and the gum?), as well as a whole lot of wax.

Beezer12 · January 14, 2008 4:55PM

assume everything is bad

F1ferrari · January 14, 2008 6:51PM

Just checking his other auctions, he's got an 1982 rack with not one but TWO Ripken rookies on top. Coincidence?

flatfoot816 · January 15, 2008 2:57AM

as stated--notorious re-sealer and apparently manufacturer of bad raks too

all is NG

11235813 · January 15, 2008 3:07AM

Have sent seller an email asking them to explain the lack of aging on the 1975 racks and the fact that the cards are facing the back of the rack instead of the front on the 1983 two Sandbergs rack. Will post response....

proofer2 · January 15, 2008 6:24AM

Oh yea...I would love to hear the response to that one!!

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · January 15, 2008 6:33AM

Sold on ebay awhile back. Unsure of who seller was or if it is legit.

But yes racks can be resealed but I have gotten 89 Fleer racks from legit sealed cases with cards on back facing the wrong way. Never all of them. Only the insert card was. I know one guy who has a 89 Fleer cello with a FF on top and bottom he said he pulled it from a case. I wouldnt believe it unless I pulled it. I used to see alot of 87 T cellos with same players on top and bottom. I bought a Palmeiro a day before his scandal broke. I didnt have a clue. I wondered why I got it for so cheap. lol

The best rack I pulled from a case had..I think -Johnson,Sheffield and another good player on top. Bummer it wasnt Griffey.

11235813 · January 15, 2008 7:40AM

Here's the response I got:

"I have many cases,boxes,and packs.most of what I saved though the years was stars on the top thats what I like the most.as far as the 1983 most of what I have look like that one,the 1975 racks I got two boxes in the 90's that I saved and these are two of them.thanks"

I asked the seller about provenance (which he "answered"), as well as to explain the lack of wear and tear on the 75 racks (which he didn't) and why the cards on the 83 rack with two Sandbergs are facing the back instead of the front (which he didn't).

grote15 · January 15, 2008 10:36AM

Punch hole on the header card of the 75 rack pack is also wrong (not to mention that it's on the wrong side).

Fake crap all the way.

proofer2 · January 15, 2008 12:03PM

Do the bidder IDs remain private after the auction is over?

11235813 · January 15, 2008 12:13PM

Grote15,

Since you seem to be one of the resident experts on unopened material, can you look at the 1982 double Ripken RC rack, the 1986 double S.Young RC grocery rack, and the 1980 Henderson RC super cello and explain what is wrong with those racks?

I didn't know that it was possible to fake a super cello (because of the gum & the oversized cellophone wrapper) or a grocery rack. Just want to know what to look for in the future.

Thanks!

grote15 · January 15, 2008 12:27PM

Rack packs can be carefully slit open and resealed with star cards on top. Or fabricated altogether with the proper materials and equipment. On a cello, the thing the look for is the way the card "lays" on top and how card stock and pattern looks in comparison with the rest of the cards in the pack and whether there is unusual markings/wear on the top of the card. 1980 super cellos were notoriously loosely sealed so I don't think it would be too difficult for a resealer to create one of these star packs as well. I don't collect grocery racks specifically so I don't have much info on those but 1975 Topps baseball rack packs featured a crosshairs punch hole and unlike most other years, the header card was on the right side.

The odds of finding a single rack pack with one Ripken rookie on top are long enough, but to find one with TWO? That just strains the capacity of credibility, IMO. And given the history of this seller, specifically, you can be virtually certain that such a rack pack is most certainly not authentic.

Do the bidder IDs remain private after the auction is over?

Yes.

Tampered Rack Packs?

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