Ebay seller requires insurance and then does not purchase it.

FavreFan1971 · September 17, 2007 10:24AM

I bought a card on Ebay from a guy that requires $1.40 for insurance which does not bother me. But when I got the package he did not purchase the insurance. I sent him this email.

Dear ajscardshop,

Hello,
I won the 1979 TOPPS #463 TERDELL MIDDLETON PACKERS PSA 9 MINT card the other day. Got it in the mail and noticed there was no insurance on the package. I am assuming it was just an oversite. Would you kindly refund me the $1.40 to XXXXXX@hotmail.com

Auction #

Link to Auction

Thanks.

Here was his reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the email, wasnt an oversite, insurance guarantees delivery, if you had not received the card I would have issued a full refund. You cant even insure aan item under $50 at the post office any more for $1.40, glad to hear you got the card, A.J.

-----------------------------------------

Amazing customer service and a theif.

I am not going to disclose who the seller is just yet. I will send him the link to this thread to see if he decides to refund me my $1.40. Ebay is just getting worse by the day.

After his responses I felt I needed to disclose his name for everyone to put him on the don't bid list.

mkg809 · September 17, 2007 10:28AM

What a jackass.
There has to be some kind of ebay policy against this.

grote15 · September 17, 2007 10:35AM

Though it may not apply in this case, many sellers use stamps.com to purchase insurance along with shipping label and DC, and it does not show on the package even though it is insured, my point being that just because a package doesn't have a USPS insurance label doesn't mean it is not insured, though in this case it appears the seller has chosen to "self insure" the package. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as the seller is willing to make good if the package gets lost.

BunchOBull · September 17, 2007 10:35AM

This is an idiotic policy on his behalf. Any scam artist could counter his scam by claiming said item did not arrive. If he actually spends money on delivery confirmation, damage could be claimed. Idiotic.

FavreFan1971 · September 17, 2007 10:36AM

the guy used regular postage stamps. I would have been fine with self insurance but it was the arrogant tone in his response that ticked me off.

colebear · September 17, 2007 10:40AM

Self insuring is against ebay policies.

grote15 · September 17, 2007 10:42AM

but it was the arrogant tone in his response that ticked me off.

Agreed. I don't know why people on ebay feel like they have to obnoxious when responding to a polite inquiry or e-mail, but it turns a benign situation into an irritating one. These days most sellers just factor the cost of insurance into the shipping charge anyway, as a seller is on the hook for a lost item even if insurance is not purchased if the buyer uses Paypal.

Post25 · September 17, 2007 10:42AM

I think alot of people are doing this now... Had the same thing happen to me a few months back. Probabaly charge everyone insurance because they know 1 in 100,000 packages go missing. If they do get hit they just pay you back from all the insurance money they steal from us.

artistlost · September 17, 2007 10:46AM

Happen to me too. Called it self insurance...a scam to get more $$.

mathew

DerekD · September 17, 2007 10:54AM

From ebay's "Excessive Shipping Charges Policy" page:

Insurance: Sellers offering insurance may only charge the actual fee for insurance. No additional amount may be added, such as “self-insurance”. Sellers who do not use a licensed 3rd party insurance company may not require buyers to purchase insurance. This is a violation of state law.

ArnyVee · September 17, 2007 11:00AM

Ridiculous....what a jackass. Just a way to profit an additional buck and a half.

vintagetoppsguy · September 17, 2007 11:01AM

Next time you might want to handle it a little differently. Just wait a week or so after it arrives and then email the seller to let him know that you have not received it and you want to file a claim on that insurance that you purchaed. Watch how fast they crawfish!!!

Please disclose his name so that we can avoid him!

I would also file a claim with PayPal and get your money back. I know it's only $1.40, but it's the principle!

mosaic · September 17, 2007 11:11AM

Whatta gimp. I just sold a Frank Thomas 2007 A&G Bazooka mini to some guy on eBay for about $66. I didn't charge him shipping and spent $7 out of pocket to make sure it went priority w/ delivery confirm and insurance. I'm not saying that's how everyone on eBay should do it, but if you tell people you're going to insure, you should do it the traditional way.

BunchOBull · September 17, 2007 11:15AM

<< <i>Whatta gimp. I just sold a Frank Thomas 2007 A&G Bazooka mini to some guy on eBay for about $66. I didn't charge him shipping and spent $7 out of pocket to make sure it went priority w/ delivery confirm and insurance. I'm not saying that's how everyone on eBay should do it, but if you tell people you're going to insure, you should do it the traditional way. >>

Congrats on that Thomas sell. A lot of the A&G's have lost their premiums over time, but it stayed true to the averages.

FavreFan1971 · September 17, 2007 11:20AM

And the crap keeps rolling in.

I sent him another email --

After sending the last email I realized you have swindled me out of a measly $1.40. Now a buck and a half does not break my bank but it breaks the trust relationship between a buyer and seller. I expected some product (tangible or not) for what I paid for. I did not get that. That is why I asked for a partial refund.

I started a thread about this transaction on the PSA collecting boards.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=608549

The thread will disappear once my refund has been sent to ebayfortroy@hotmail.com

His reply ---------------------------------------

Troy, thanks for the email, sorry no refund, you got what you paid for, insurance guarantees delivery. A.J.

---------------------------------

Amazing

FavreFan1971 · September 17, 2007 11:22AM

One last email from him.

I have issued full refunds for any packages that got lost. I really dont need your $1.40 either. Will issue you a refund for your $1.40. I have already added you to my blocked bidders list so I guess I did lose a customer. Glad to hear you received the card, Good luck with completing your set, no hard feeling here, thanks, A.J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Troy Ebay
To: ajscardshop@dejazzd.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: Partial refund requested

With that response you have lost a customer. Very disappointed that you feel you have steal $1.40 without justifying the insurance.

mosaic · September 17, 2007 11:25AM

Favrefan1971 - He sounds like he's been watching too much Starship Troopers: "service guarantees citizenship!"

I think you're pretty much screwed outta that buck-forty. I notice a TON of sellers do that, charge for insurance but don't buy it. Makes me frown, but I haven't had a problem yet, apart from being nickled-and-dimed... so I haven't bothered to get up in someone's butt. At least the new feedback sliders let you anonymously rate the seller's shipping cost. I'd give him 1 star.

Edit: oh wow, he refunded you? The power of mentioning the PSA Forum! Or something.

BunchOBull - yeah, pretty happy with the sale, and the buyer is a genuine Thomas nut living in the Chicago area. I love it when good cards find good homes.

mtcards · September 17, 2007 11:31AM

I know this has been covered before and talked about in the past. You are right about the self insuring is only a way to make a buck forty, but think about the USPS.

You are paying THEM to deliver your product which you are paying a fee for. Then you are paying them an extra fee to guarantee replacement in case they dont do the job that you PAID them to do in the first place. Although I agree that this guy is scamming his customers, it isnt IMHO, any worse than the USPS.

EagleEyeKid · September 17, 2007 11:42AM

I hate sellers that pull that crap.
So in total, he got $4.40 + $1.40 = $5.80.
You received it with regular postage stamps (I imagine no more
than $1.50). That's some nice change he's accumlating annually.

Yes, it is the principle. Glad he refunded the diff. and you don't need to deal with him ever again.

bigfische · September 17, 2007 12:18PM

I was thinking about how much i hate getting plain white envelopes with cards in them from sellers the other day. I propose we start putting WES (white envelpoe shipper) in the feedback to notify other buyers of their shipping practices.

unitas · September 17, 2007 12:43PM

Great Seller blocks you because HE OVERCHARGED you, Only on ebay, glad you brought this to others attention.

BunchOBull · September 17, 2007 12:45PM

<< <i>I was thinking about how much i hate getting plain white envelopes with cards in them from sellers the other day. I propose we start putting WES (white envelpoe shipper) in the feedback to notify other buyers of their shipping practices. >>

I like this idea. I can leave positive feedback for the lucky WES whose product arrives safely, but still warn others. I like.

RipublicaninMass · September 17, 2007 12:54PM

yup WES it is!

Leiascards · September 17, 2007 1:01PM

Where is the rule saying self insuring on Ebay is against the rules? Thats right it does not exist. However charging for postal insurance and not putting it on the package does fall into excessive S&H. Get Ebay to do something about that though.

I self-insure all packages under 25.00 if there is a problem I refund. I don't charge for it I just do it. Packages over 25.00 I use a third party insurance company. It is alot cheaper and easier to claim with this than using USPS insurance.

Postal insurance is actually a big scam itself. Have you tried to make a claim recently. I have dealt with auto insurance companies who are easier to deal with. They will also only pay the REPLACEMENT value of the item so if you send a PSA 10 Jerry Rice rookie. Even if you insure it for 5000 dollars USPS will only PAY what the book price of a mint Rice rookie is and that is 80.00.

grote15 · September 17, 2007 1:21PM

Even if you insure it for 5000 dollars USPS will only PAY what the book price of a mint Rice rookie is and that is 80.00.

Are you sure that is correct? My understanding is that as longa s you can prove the value of the lost item (i.e. Paypal receipt showing what the item sold for), USPS will refund the purchase price. Maybe Jim can chime in here, I'd be interested in knowing the answer to this.

bigfische · September 17, 2007 1:33PM

<< <i>I self-insure all packages under 25.00 if there is a problem I refund. I don't charge for it I just do it. >>

This isnt really relevant to the conversation if you are not charging for it. Its not insurance, it is just doing what a respectable seller does. The other guy charges for it, that is the complaint.

Leiascards · September 17, 2007 2:26PM

I had to file about 3 months ago on an action figure that was graded 95 by AFA that got crushed in shipping the figure ungraded is worth about 25.00. Even though I had proof what I paid they wanted proof of what 3 others recently sold for proving the values, being that was probaly the only one with that grade it was impossible to find others. They only wanted to pay 25.00 to replace the item even though I had proof I just paid 82.00 for it.. I finally got them to pay it but it was a big headache.

bishop · September 17, 2007 9:50PM

What if the guy had said in his listing ... "The winning bidder shall accept the risk of shipping unless a fee of $ 1.40 is added to the winning bid, in which case, seller will accept this risk and will issue a ull refund for lost and or damaged goods. While normally the risk of shipping would be on me the seller, this is my express offer, so do not bid if you find this term unacceptable. "

By the way, I am strictly a buyer on e aby

jlzinck · September 17, 2007 10:36PM

THe bottom line is that it is the seller's responsibility to make sure item is delivered.

If he never received the card he would have received a refund.

It is frustrating but not nearly as frustrating as filing a claim with the USPS.

THe one and only time I did I received my insurance proceeds from the USPS 7 months and 4 days after the item was mailed. You can file a claim 30 days after mailing. I made over 100 calls to get my $119 that I had already refunded the buyer.

And to those bozo's ,who claim that if I don't buy insurance I'm chit out of luck if it doesn't arrive or is damaged, I use paypal or Credit Card. That is my insurance that you will make sure it gets to me.

FanothoseYanks · September 17, 2007 10:54PM

I look at insurance as a two way street protecting both parties. This seller is foolishly taking risks for nickels and dimes. What happens if the buyer of an expensive card gets the item, but says he did not, and demands his money back? There wouldn't be any way to track the package, since the seller didn't insure it. Looks like a good way to lose his shirt to me.

Leiascards · September 17, 2007 11:00PM

Delivery Confitrmation is better protection against that than Insurance tracking. The PO will rarely pay on a card that has DC showing as delivered. Paypal will not refund the buyer if the seller can show Delivery with DC.

Insurance does not protect the buyer. It is for the sellers protection only. A seller is responsible for making sure the buyer gets the item..

WinPitcher · September 17, 2007 11:24PM

Happen to me too. Called it self insurance...a scam to get more $$.

Mathew

It didn't happen to you. What happened to you is you wanted your freaking cake and eat it to.

You wanted to save $$ on customs (which I did for you) then you have the aducity to cry over 5.00 in postage fees.

Everyone should stop whining about sellers that 'self insure' I have paid out such claims and would have paid out your claim had one arisen, I did'nt belive you fo a minute that you would have accepted 40.00 for a 1965 Carlton (the amount you asked me to declare)! You would have wanted the full freaking amount of the cost of the CARLTON rookie. You did pay with paypal...........not for a moment did I believe your outladndish claim that had the card been lost you would have 'settlesd' for the 40.00 and not what you paid thru paypal! give it a break.

Scam to make more money? I saved you dough and the thanks I got was you crying over 5 freaking dollars.

dited to add: So tell us matt how much did you scam the Canadian govt by asking sellers to circumvent customs for you?

Steve

BunchOBull · September 18, 2007 12:42AM

So is there some imaginary pot that self insurers put their insurance fees in, and draw from once a claim is made? Conceptually I understand, but 99.9% of the time, no service has been provided and $1.40 (or more) has been pocketed or "placed" in the pot. I pay for all of my eBay purchases with PayPal Buyer Credit, then I shoot the funds from my bank account to cover the balance. It's my own added security. If a seller doesn't accept PayPal, I probably won't purchase from them, but may use a USPS money order. Sellers who require insurance are suggesting they wish to protect the transaction for both parties, and, in some cases, that they've been left holding the bag before. The concept of self insurance blows that idea out of the water, and lends itself towards the profit margin end of the business spectrum.

EDITED TO ADD:

In Steve's case, he took the situation on the chin. I would never do for a buyer what he did. As other self insurers have stated, they've made good on their claims if obligated; however, those are the "honest" sellers. No matter how incompetent USPS and their insurance program can be, purchasing insurance from them or another 3rd party insurer gives both the buyer and seller a true course of action should a claim arise. When a transaction occurs without a hitch, the money charged for insurance represents that 3rd party course of action. If an item is self insured, again, it represents profit margin.

digicat · September 18, 2007 3:02AM

Ok, the question here is... why argue with the seller? Report them to Ebay/Paypal the second he says "no."

itzagoner · September 18, 2007 3:17AM

seems to me like something being offered under false pretense, if you pay for insurance you should receive it....if the seller uses a third party insurer it should be known to the buyer....there are ways to cheat the buyers w/o being so obvious, but in this time of such difficulty in cultivating a strong customer base in the card market, shouldn't we be making every effort possible to keep our customers? JMO

Leiascards · September 18, 2007 4:32AM

So is there some imaginary pot that self insurers put their insurance fees in, and draw from once a claim is made? Conceptually I understand, but 99.9% of the time, no service has been provided and $1.40 (or more) has been pocketed or "placed" in the po

How is this any different than the USPS selling insurance? Ever tried to file a claim. Getting teeth pulled with no novacaine can be less painful. Think about it say they insure 50,000 items a day the might only pay on 5 of them. Where does that extra money go?

Asking a seller to lie on a customs form is a form of mail fraud and can be prosecuted in the same way. Not likely but it can happen.

BunchOBull · September 18, 2007 4:41AM

There is no difference when it's free insurance on items of $25.00 or less, as in your case. It's legal recourse I'm speaking of. A third party insurer, though designed not to pay out unless necessary, provides contractual documentation of insurance, not an eBay listing that will disappear in 3 months. IMO, it's much more difficult to deal with a seller who has no intention of honoring homemade insurance than the rigmarole and loops the PO makes one jump through to honor insurance. The problem is, no service has been provided for the funds other than a supposed insurance with basically no documentation. A buyer has purchased nothing and has no proof or tangible reward for paying said insurance, unless they are forced to file a claim. Then, and only then, will they learn if they've paid for a tangible service.

WinPitcher · September 18, 2007 8:46AM

As long as the seller refunds your dough if the card does not arrive or arrives damaged what is the problem how he/she insures?

I have refunded even when the buyer paid for no such insurance and my feedback will back it up.

I asked for the 5.oo in the canadian case cuz I had no idea how much it would cost to ship it to him. (fwiw my auctions clearly state i ship ONLY to the US) yet he bid and won w/o asking me. It was just after the PO changed it's policys too. I figured 5.00 more would help cover me, (it did'nt) thus i self insured it for him thinking i was doing him a freaking favor. The old adage no good deed goes unpunished applies here cuz he whined to me about it for weeks. And to this day still feels he was scammed. I still wonder had it not arrived would he had taken the 40.00 (its declared value) or would he have marched over to Paypal and file a claim? thus getting his 225.00 back? What do you guys think??

5.00 was CHEAP insurance for him yet he still cries about it.

Steve

Ebay seller requires insurance and then does not purchase it.

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