Would you go near this card with a 2 foot pole?
RipublicaninMass
Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
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RipublicaninMass
Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
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1-Ted buys card
2-Ted carefully cracks it out
3-Ted sends it to psa thinking how much of a relief it will be to finnally land this card in a psa 7 for his beloved '55 set
4-Ted waits for grade to pop
5-Ted waits some more for grade to pop
6-Grades pop!!
7-Ted is horrified that submission yields "not holdered due to trimming" or maybe Grade=6
8-Ted Drinks heavily to take away his anger for time and money wasted in this little endeavor
9-Ted lists this card on ebay to try and recoup monies lost
10-Ted takes a financial hit and drinks more
11-Ted is back to square one in looking for a nice psa 7 Clemente for his beloved '55 set
In short... NO
New SCD is barely a step above GEM and I doubt it'll cross. Then again I'm just a crotchety old man.
<< <i>Who was it that posted the PSA 7 55T Clemente they bought at the National? That was a great looking card. >>
I KNOW!!! I need one and it was a beauty!
Yep that is a fake card in a cracked slab, I'd bet my 2 foot pole on it.
Thank you for the info about getting the green wrong and about the finish. Alot of us know about looking up past user's activities (ie auction wins and sales/ feedback) but probably lots less of us know detail like you pointed out. Thank you for helping further educate us!
Steve
Are you serious???? With all due respect, do you know anything about vintage cards??? Of course the green is a lighter shade. The red is a lighter shade. The whole card is a lighter shade. Look at the green material. It is the same material as in both pictures, but it is a lighter shade. Do you possibly think that the lighting could have been diffentent when he took the two photographs??? That would be my guess. The card is real. Whether or not it had been altered is another question, but it is definitley real!
<< <i>With all due respect, do you know anything about vintage cards??? >>
Actually I do not know much about anything. All I really know about vintage cards is that I got a bunch that I found in my granpa's attic. If you like these old side ways cards I could sell you this one for a $100 money order. Sorry for the good scan, I will try to get a photograph from about 5 feet away and not crop it so just the card shows, you may want to see my pretty green blanket. I could also have it slabbed in a case that has frosting all around the edges. This can be done a few days after I list the card raw on eBay.
I mistakenly bought a Sports Cards Direct Tony Gwynn RC a few years ago, thinking that it was a Sports Collectors Digest graded card, sent it to PSA for the crossover service, and it back as having been "Trimmed". And in case you maybe wondering; no, I did not sell it on eBay afterwards. As a matter of fact, I gave it to a neighbor's young boy.
/s/ JackWESQ
P.S. By the way, does this PSA 9 look overgraded?
If you really believe that these are the same two cards, then you really do know nothing about vintage cards or perhaps cards in general. Look at the BACK of both cards. The back of the raw card clearly displays much better centering than the graded card. Pay real close attention to the to the top border and there is a big difference in centering.
raw card
graded card
However, if you still believe they are the same two cards and there is a scam going on, then you should report them to eBay. Perhaps you could get Lee to call too - he knows everything. May as well kill two birds with one stone and go ahead and report the fake Ruth ball while you guys are at it.
<< <i>Allen,
However, if you still believe they are the same two cards and there is a scam going on, then you should report them to eBay. Perhaps you could get Lee to call too - he knows everything. May as well kill two birds with one stone and go ahead and report the fake Ruth ball while you guys are at it. -Gi-Oh cards. >>
The colors on the SCD card look a little too bright for me. The fact that he has sold a raw Clemente RC and a graded RC in the same week basically is also odd (why not get both graded?).
SCD is known to be a dumping ground for trimmed and fake cards so I would walk away.
BTW this is going to sell for a little over 1K. I paid almost 2400 for mine due to the pack fresh appearance. In the light the color is amazing.
My Registry Sets
I paid almost 2400 for mine YOWSER!!!! worth every penny looks better than MOST 8's out there
The only scammer in the situation is you. You are trying to scam the members of this board into thinking that you actually know something. Congrats, it worked. Perkdog actually agreed with you for a moment. I don’t think he would now.
You said that there was a difference in the shades of the card. Well, it wasn’t the shade of the card, it was the whole picture that was lighter because of the lighting. You said that they were the same card. They are obviously not. Now you say the case looks like it has been cracked. Consider the source – SCD? How good do you really expect the cases and the seal job to be? Do you really want to keep going with this?
It really pi$$es me off and you have no right to accuse an eBay member with 550+ feedback and a 99.3 feedback rating (with no negs in the past year and a member for almost 9 years) of scamming when you do not know for sure. Look at the majority of the items he sells – they are golf clubs. I’m not saying that the card hasn’t been altered or trimmed, but I really do not think this seller, given his credentials, is trying to scam anybody. If the card has been altered, then perhaps he just doesn’t know. Why risk the negative feedback? Don’t you think that if he were actually trying to scam people that he would have an alt id? Of course he would. Why ruin the reputation that it took him 9 years to build? I agree with you in the fact that I would stay away from it, but not because I think he’s trying to scam. I would stay away from it simply because of the brand of holder that it’s in. If you bought that card and wanted to cross it over, you might get real lucky and it come back a 5. Perhaps you should stick to Yu-Gi-Oh cards!
Allen Is a very well respected member of this forum who most times gives out valuable information. So he was wrong this one time. The way you jumped on him makes YOU look bad not him.
I guess you are always right huh?
Steve
I've butted heads with plenty of new posters but 9 out of 10 times, we eventually end up getting along just fine. However, if you keep up that kind of attitude, you will NEVER be accepted here.
/ $0.02
Morg, your psa 7 looks great and $2400 was a fair deal imo I would have paid that much. I have seen nice 7's sell from $2k to 3.1k so very in the ballpark.
<< <i>YO Vintage topps guy, take a break from it ok?
Allen Is a very well respected member of this forum who most times gives out valuable information. So he was wrong this one time. The way you jumped on him makes YOU look bad not him.
I guess you are always right huh?
Steve >>
Steve,
I hear ya! But I think some you guys are missing the point. My point is, what gives Allen (or anybody else for that matter) the right to drag the name of a reputable eBayer through the mud? Is it okay just because he is a "well respected member of this forum"? The seller he is making out to be a scammer is obviously a well respected member of the ebay community. I think it would be totally different if the situation were reversed. Suppose that seller came on this forum accusing Allen of being a scammer. You would all jump on him. All I am doing is speaking up for somebody who can't/won't speak up for themself. You can go to bat for him if you want to, but what he said is WRONG!
MY APOLIGIES TO ALLEN, but anybody who is going to make those type of accusations needs to do their homework first.
smtjoy- thanks, I knew it wasn't too out of line and being at the National I felt it was a good deal for that room. I still can't believe I own it. I have pulled it out every night and look at it. It will be one of those cards that will never be sold unless in a deal for an 8 that's nicer than this 7. Anyone trying to buy this card knows that there is alot of bad 7's, 8's and 9's graded.
Why don't you buy my Koufax RC I posted? It might teach you a lot about 55 Topps. I will give you the friend discount, $50 money order or cash.
You did too say they were the same card. Look at your post at 10:02. You clearly say
<< <i>Seller sold this before.....ended Aug 7th >>
Doesn't that mean they are the same card? I'm done arguing with you. You win. It is a scam and should be reported to eBay!
I see the same thing your describing as far as the case looking like it's cracked. However, all of their cards have the same type of marks. Here is another one.
<< <i>Allen,
If you really believe that these are the same two cards, then you really do know nothing about vintage cards or perhaps cards in general. Look at the BACK of both cards. The back of the raw card clearly displays much better centering than the graded card. Pay real close attention to the to the top border and there is a big difference in centering.
However, if you still believe they are the same two cards and there is a scam going on, then you should report them to eBay. Perhaps you could get Lee to call too - he knows everything. May as well kill two birds with one stone and go ahead and report the fake Ruth ball while you guys are at it. >>
Wow. You really know how to make friends, don't ya?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>Wow. You really know how to make friends, don't ya? >>
I bet the ebay member whose name was dragged through the mud would appreciate me standing up for him. I would stand up for you, Allen or anybody else who I thought was being falsely accused of something. You need to look at the big picture. You need to look at the consequences over something like this. For some, selling on eBay is just a hobby, maybe make a little side money, get rid of duplicate cards or whatever. For others, it is their livelyhood. It is how they make a living and pay their bills. This ebay seller has obviously been a member for 9 years, has a feedback rating of 99.3% and has no negatives in the last year. I would say that he has worked pretty hard to build his reputation in the ebay community. Then somebody comes along who wants to destroy the reputation that he has worked so hard to build by accusing him of being a scammer? Damn right, I'll stand up for somebody like that every time. If you don't want to be my friend because I did the right thing by defending somebody who is innocent of what he is being accused of, then so be it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow. You really know how to make friends, don't ya? >>
I bet the ebay member whose name was dragged through the mud would appreciate me standing up for him. I would stand up for you, Allen or anybody else who I thought was being falsely accused of something. You need to look at the big picture. You need to look at the consequences over something like this. For some, selling on eBay is just a hobby, maybe make a little side money, get rid of duplicate cards or whatever. For others, it is their livelyhood. It is how they make a living and pay their bills. This ebay seller has obviously been a member for 9 years, has a feedback rating of 99.3% and has no negatives in the last year. I would say that he has worked pretty hard to build his reputation in the ebay community. Then somebody comes along who wants to destroy the reputation that he has worked so hard to build by accusing him of being a scammer? Damn right, I'll stand up for somebody like that every time. If you don't want to be my friend because I did the right thing by defending somebody who is innocent of what he is being accused of, then so be it. >>
Big Picture. Okay. Let's look at it. Seller sells a graded card, a lesser desirable grading company graded card mind you. He also conveniently sold a raw card of the same type 'for a friend of his'. The majority of his auctions are not for sports cards. Sorry, Allen is right, there is something fishy going on.
Add to the fact of the big picture that a long standing member asked a question regarding the auction looking for other members thoughts on the card/auction. Allen, another long standing member, chimed in with his opinion. You take it upon yourself to throw in your two cents about Allen's opinion, and for that matter, rope Lee (yet another long standing member) into your dig at Allen.
Face the facts bud--Ted asked a question, Allen responded with his opinion and you went after Allen. We protect our own here. That seller is more than welcome to chime in.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>Big Picture. Okay. Let's look at it. Seller sells a graded card, a lesser desirable grading company graded card mind you. He also conveniently sold a raw card of the same type 'for a friend of his'. The majority of his auctions are not for sports cards. Sorry, Allen is right, there is something fishy going on.
Add to the fact of the big picture that a long standing member asked a question regarding the auction looking for other members thoughts on the card/auction. Allen, another long standing member, chimed in with his opinion. You take it upon yourself to throw in your two cents about Allen's opinion, and for that matter, rope Lee (yet another long standing member) into your dig at Allen.
Face the facts bud--Ted asked a question, Allen responded with his opinion and you went after Allen. We protect our own here. That seller is more than welcome to chime in. >>
You need to go back an re-read the thread from the beginning. Ted's original question was, "Would you go near this card with a 2 foot pole?" The question requires a simple yes or no answer. If you want to eloborate after that as to the reason, then fine. My answer was no, simply based on the brand of the grading company. However to make comments like,
<< <i>I looked up the auction and now that I look at it, that card is counterfeit. >>
or
<< <i>There is a scam going on for sure. >>
or
<< <i>That case is cracked, look how frosted it is. >>
is completely irresponsible and potentially damaging to the seller. You say Allen is a long standing member? SFW? Does that give him the right to make the accusations that he did? NO! I am a long standing member of the ebay community and I am going to protect my own as well.
<< <i> You say Allen is a long standing member? SFW? Does that give him the right to make the accusations that he did? NO! I am a long standing member of the ebay community and I am going to protect my own as well. >>
Then go do it on the Ebay boards.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>Then go do it on the Ebay boards. >>
Sorry about that. I didn't realize you owned the boards.
Why would the lighter color mean the cards are fake? Couldn't a card made in 55 fade?
How can one tell a case is cracked from a small picture? I have looked at the card in question on two different computer screens today and it is just too small for me to see anything one way or the other?
This thread has rasied the general issue of trimming cards - as do many threads here How can one begin to guess a card is trimmed by looking at pictures on a computer screen and looking at a person's ebay history? Shouldn't you hold and examin the card?
On the issue of trimming and coloring: Even I know that quality control by Topps when they were the only game in town was not too good. Is it not possible that a few 55 clemente were run off with slighty off colors in the factory so to speak? And, I can recall getting a number of cards in old packs that were miscut and either samller or larger than the appropriate card size. So, again - how does one begin to guess a card has been trimmed by a scan in an ebay listing?
Last question: There is more discussion on this board about fake cards then I would have expected. Is this a big problem? What would be the price point of a real vintage card where it becomes economically viable to take the trouble of making a fake card?
Anyway, I would love to understand how some of you can look at a computer scan and decide on the authenticity of a vintage card. I don't raise in doubt of you, but raise it in trying to understand something that escapes me.
Thanks
Rick
Welcome to the boards and to the hobby. This is a great place to learn and there are a lot of members of this board with valuable information that they are willing to share. However, you will find just the opposite to be true as well. There are also members of this board who have "X" number of posts or have been a member for "X" number of years and think they know everything. Most of these type members have the attitude that new board members know absolutely nothing about this hobby and want to tell you the way they think it is supposed to be.
Just like yourself, I am a new member of these boards. However, I have been collecting for 22 years. I want to try to answer some of your questions. First, yes it is possible for a card to fade over a period of time and it is also possible that the card is lighter becasue that is the way it came from the factory. Usually the fading occurs from not being stored properly (light), but the lighter ones from the factory are just problems with the ink (or lack of) during production. If you like, PM me and I can send you scans showing the difference.
Second, there are many scams on eBay, some easier to detect than others. Most involve raw cards, but some involve graded cards as well. Raw card scams usually involve trimming, bait and switch, intentionally overgraded/overstated condition, etc. These are sometimes harder to detect. Graded card scams are usually photoshopped pics where it appears the card is in a holder that really doesn't exist. You can usually tell if you do a search by the certification number because the number they use for the photoshopped pic usually doesn't exist or doesn't match the particular card. If you're in doubt, just consider the source - look at the seller's feedback which is usually a good indicator, but not foolproof.
There are a lot of counterfeit cards. Known examples include 63 Topps Rose rookie, 85 Topps McGwire Rookie, Fleer Jordan rookie, etc. Once a counterfeit is detected, that information is usually shared (like on these boards) so people know what to look for. Once you know what you're looking for, those are easy to spot.
It is hard to look at just a scan of a card and say that it is creased, trimmed, re-colored, counterfeit, etc,. Some things are easier to see and pick up on than others. I hardly ever by raw just for that reason. Spend a little more, buy graded and you won't be disappointed. Good luck!