Advice needed - selling unopened product

BobS · July 16, 2007 1:40AM

So....... I was at the Columbus, OH show this past weekend. If you have read any of the other threads about it, it's a great quarterly show that attracts a lot of midwest vintage dealers/collectors etc. The one thing I noticed was the complete lack of anyone selling any unopened material dating pre-2006. Any opinions as to why this is? At a show like this, there was ton's of cash changing hands, and most of it was at the vintage tables.

So......I got to thinking and decided maybe I can be the guy selling this stuff at the next show. I would also like to move some stuff on e-bay during the "off" time. I have about 5K to get started. Any advice? Should I buy a few key boxes (81 FB, 84 FB, 82 baseball, etc.) and a few packs from each of the 70's, and try to make 10-20% markup at the show? Should I bother with pack grading? I assume I'll but form BBXchange or D&A. Do you think I can turn a profit buying from them (ie. expensive)?

Any comments are appreciated. Just looking for a way to make some $$ for collecting, and perhaps add a few nice packs to my collection to boot.

FavreFan1971 · July 16, 2007 1:55AM

BB's prices are higher because he is well trusted. If you are going to be new to the unopened market you should grade your packs or offer to have your ungraded packs graded at your expense to get a good reputation. Just a thought.

BobS · July 16, 2007 2:24AM

That's exactly it. If I'm going to sell, I need to know I'm selling legit stuff, so I guess BBXchange may be the way to go.

CDsNuts · July 16, 2007 2:34AM

There's not a whole lot of room for profit on Steve's stuff, plus just because you know it's legit, doesn't mean your customers do. You'll have a hard time pulling $500-$550 for a box of 84 Topps football regardless of what show you set up at.

If you're going to do it, you can either go with a them (1978-1985 baseball for example) or pick which items you think you have a chance to make the most money.

dontippet · July 16, 2007 3:16AM

Why should I buy from you, whom I don't know, when I can go to BBCExhange.com and buy the same box 10-20% cheaper from one of the greats in the business? Also, if you are looking for 10% from a $5,000 investment, that is only a total of $500. You need to remember that you will pay for shipping, show fees, travel expenses, show supplies, and potential theft. And don't forget about the stuff that you don't sell.

nam812 · July 16, 2007 3:26AM

Don - With that mindset then no one would ever start out on there own. I say you have to start somewhere, and guaranteeing BBCE a sale of $5,000 just might get you $5,500 of his stuff. Every little bit helps when starting out.

diamondman · July 16, 2007 3:31AM

<< That's exactly it. If I'm going to sell, I need to know I'm selling legit stuff, so I guess BBXchange may be the way to go. >>

If I were you I would go to the national in Cleveland and buy the older wax there as the competition will be greater and there are alot of great dealers there that will cut a break buying quantity and paying cash. just moo

BobS · July 16, 2007 3:49AM

Thanks guys.

Don - I didn't say I was looking to start a business and retire next year. Just noticed a little niche at the show that I would like to fill. I mentioned selling on e-bay, but I've never sold packs and realize there would be many, many better avenues out there for buyers. I suppose having graded packs would level the palying field a bit. Anyway, the show is what I'm most interested in, not e-bay.

E-bay aside, why buy from me - because I'll be the only one at the show with the stuff.

Shipping on one big lot from BBXchange wouldn't be that much in the grand scheme of things. Table fees are $75 for the weekend I think. They provide tables. I live 20 minutes away so no travel expense. Hot dogs are $2.50, so I guess I'll have to factor in another $10 to my cost. I won't have that much stuff (maybe 10 1980's, late 70's boxes and a few dozen single packs) so I think I'll be able to keep a close eye on the table and avoid theft.

BobaFett72 · July 16, 2007 3:49AM

If your buying for resale and looking to turn a decent profit, then buying from BBCE won't be the way to go. THey have good product, but the price point is high if your flipping it.

BobS · July 16, 2007 3:53AM

Bobafet -

That's what I was thinking. I figured I could make a "small" profit if I can buy boxes and pack them out, and perhaps pick up a few graded packs and tack on 10% at the show and see if I get any buyers. Heck, If I can at least break even with the product, cover the table fee, and make $10 for the hot-dogs I wouldn't complain.

softparade · July 16, 2007 3:57AM

<< Bobafet -

Heck, If I can at least break even with the product, cover the table fee, and make $10 for the hot-dogs I wouldn't complain. >>

What about the $200 for the beer? Make enough to cover for the beer dammit!

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · July 16, 2007 4:05AM

The one thing I noticed was the complete lack of anyone selling any unopened material dating pre-2006. Any opinions as to why this is? At a show like this, there was ton's of cash changing hands, and most of it was at the vintage tables.

If I buy a pack at a show it could easily of been resealed. Knowing that when I find it to be fake either thru PSA/GAI or closer inspection at home Im stuck. At least with ebay you have Paypal/credit card refund option.

I have heard quite a few times recently. " I bought this rare card at a show for $40. $50 etc.." Well its a 89 Fleer B/W test Bill Ripken and its fake. Some shady sellers use shows as a place to move fakes as there is no recourse for refund.

I wouldnt buy any unopened vintage packs at a show. Graded ones I would but it would have to be a rare one as the more "common" ones can be found on ebay quite often.

Cards sell well at shows as you can inspect for condition better than the internet.

Also if there was no vintage packs at the show it might be for a reason. Im sure other dealers have tried and possibly it didnt work out. Ask around.

MeteoriteGuy · July 16, 2007 4:21AM

I dont think this is a bad ideal. You usually do not see anyone that is just selling packs at shows.

Plus I think the possible seller has the right mind set. Making your show fees and $10 for hotdogs is reasonable. I think in the long run you would even build up some customers. Only problem is you might just make hot dog money for some time.

Mark

yankeeno7 · July 16, 2007 4:26AM

I think you could do just fine with 70s and early 80s product. A show of nice, clean boxes is very attractive. A lot of guys like opening that stuff to gamble for the big hit. And when a couple open and see they are not tampered with, others will see and people will buy!!!

BobS · July 16, 2007 5:01AM

Thanks again guys.

Ripken - there was a guy with packs (raw and graded) a year or so ago. His prices were very high, like 2x ebay. I assume that's why he is no longer there. Also, I hear what you're saying about buying a pack at a show. Why bother, when all the common ones can be bought on e-bay. We'll, I'd say 99% of the new boxes, HOF'er singles, RC's, etc. that people buy at this show can also be bought on e-bay.

We'll off to the dentist (ouch). Thanks again guys.

Fabfrank · July 16, 2007 5:09AM

BobS- Sounds like you have a unique opportunity. I've seen another dealer take advantage of the same situation but in a different manner. He just sells unopened boxes. He started with 1 table and now has 3-4 tables together at every show. He is the primary unopened dealer at most of the area shows. He works on narrow margins, but looks to just rollover his cash.
That's how I would start. Once you've developed some knowledge of what sells and what doesn't, you can start to put out boxes with packs.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · July 16, 2007 5:10AM

About the packs-Id buy a new pack at a show. You cant reseal those. Well you can feel,weight etc but older wax can be resealed and (my preference) would be to buy older online so I have recourse and can look at someones feeback record. It could work though. Good Luck.

Plus older wax could of changed so many hands its scary.

CDsNuts · July 16, 2007 5:12AM

I think Frank is right. Also, if you're selling packs it's good to basically have one of everything to give your customers options. The more choices they have, the more likely they're going to spend their $20, $50, or $100 at your table. With boxes, you're really going to have to hope the gamblers and/or investors will be attending.

flatfoot816 · July 16, 2007 5:31AM

many many people will drop a few bucks on vintage packs(pre-'80) if they look legit. I say go for it. I would if there were a show in the area and I had more time

BobS · July 16, 2007 6:09AM

Well, thanks for the support. The only hurdle left will be talking my better half into it. She's cool, so maybe I'll try this thing. The only other question I have is besides BBXchange/D&A, are there any other places I could look for good stuff on the cheaper?

Bob

CDsNuts · July 16, 2007 6:13AM

Tragically, no, there isn't. Especially when dealing with stuff that isn't factory sealed.

diamondman · July 16, 2007 4:03PM

<< Tragically, no, there isn't. Especially when dealing with stuff that isn't factory sealed. >>

you are all paranoid and twisted ( especially CDsNuts) yes Steve at BB card exchange is great ( one of the best) but that does not mean everyone else is out to screw you, have dealt with wax for over 20 yrs buying and selling , please learn how to detect tampered wax packs, but also remember just cause you buy 1 or 2 freaking packs and don't get a 55 topps clemente rookie or an 87 Topps bonds Rc does not mean the packs were searched, it is like going and buying a couple scratch offs (lottery) and not hitting the 1000 dollar winner, figure the odds of hitting the big card u go and buy two 88 Fleer packs looking for Tom Glavine RC U get 30 cards out of a possible 660 cards which means 1 out of 44 packs will have that card and remember (the box only has 36 packs). Starting out buying wax boxes will u get screwed ? (yes) if not sooner it will happen later, I am sure if you ask Steve at BB card xchange has he ever been burnt his answer would be yes , have I been burnt yes it is all about doing business sooner or later it happens. lessons learned are the best education ( but it Hurts). just drunk and rambling . You all have a paranoid evening and remember as one wise (chicken little) said The Sky is Falling (duck).

1neatstuff · July 16, 2007 4:33PM

hello bob s ...i just thought i would add my 2 cents in for what its worth...i have been selling unopened for around 6 years now and yes there are some very good dealers who are out there not to screw you...i have dealt with steve hart at bbc and mark murphy along with a few of the other bigger dealers and everyone knows these guys to be pretty good...i can tell you from experience that you will get burned sometimes and its not fun...but if you do your research and look at people feedback on ebay and look at some of the pulls out of people packs or racks you can kinda get the idea of what kind of person they are...i love it when someone buys some of my 1985 donruss racks and pulls a clemens rc or some of my 1982 donruss racks and pulls a ripken rc...its a thrill for me also...so not everyone is bad and there are some good wax people out there me being one of them...i would tell you to stick with graded packs when starting off or some sealed cases or rack boxes...just my thoughts as i have built up a great following of customers who know my stuff isnt cherry picked or resealed...anyways just my hoot....terry ebay user id 1neatstuff

BobS · July 16, 2007 10:05PM

Great advice.

The wife has agreed if I really want to set up at the next show, I can spend $3,000 to get my feet wet. So I think I'll spend about half with Steve Hart on a few 80's boxes, and use the other half to pick up some graded packs off e-bay (much cheaper than BBXchange). I'm thinking 1984 football, 1985 baseball, and maybe a few more boxes, and hopefully a dozen or so 70's graded packs. I have two months to shop around, so I'm hopng I can find a few good deals on packs with stars showing. I may up the ante a little and try to get a pack or two from the 60's (with my "secret" $$ she don't know about) just to get the folks talking a little at the show.

What's everyone think? Any other box suggestions? I think I can turn a small profit packing them out, and hopefully get a few bucks more at the show over the e-bay prices for the graded packs.

gemint · July 16, 2007 10:25PM

Whatever you do, have a good display. That sells the product. I used to do fairly well at shows selling vintage (60's / 70's) unopened. I even purchased packs from other tables that had them poorly displayed and then resold them at my table for a decent profit. The challenge is it's getting tougher to find clean vintage unopened these days. If you stick to 1980 and newer, you won't have a problem finding it. Just be sure to educate yourself on signs of tampering if you don't already know how to spot fakes. That will save you a lot of greif.

diamondman · July 16, 2007 10:32PM

don't forget to maybe pick up some cheap wax of 1986 + 1987 + even 1988 (something the kids/parents can afford 50 cents to 3.00 packs (will also give you a larger selection without breaking the piggy bank) also if it is a 2 or 3 day show you might look into getting a (8Ft to 16 Ft) body bag for your protection. Good luck on any decision you make.

nam812 · July 16, 2007 11:23PM

Bring someone you trust with you so that you can do a little walking around too. Sometimes after you set up your table you can pick up a dealer to dealer deal before the show starts, and flip it during the show.

CDsNuts · July 16, 2007 11:27PM

diamond- You can certainly pick up legit wax off ebay and at card shows. I never said you couldn't. I buy unopened stuff off ebay often. But Bob's question was are there any legit sellers that have a big inventory to choose from other than DA card world and BBCE, and I haven't found any. Mark Murphy doesn't have the stock he used to, and most of the guys who sell tons of hig-end unopened vintage on ebay are running scams. I guess Kruk is ok, but a lot of the stuff he sells is in rough shape. You can definitely find good stuff here and there, but as far as other dealers, the best you can do is find a guy who's unloading a few boxes every now and then. If Bob is spending the money now, he really doesn't have the time for trial and error in learning what's real and what's tampered with.

Lee

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · July 16, 2007 11:58PM

diamondman "you are all paranoid "--well maybe a little and rightfully so. If I was starting a new venture I would want someone to tell me the risks involved so I dont take a financial loss as seems to be a concern here. No, not everyone is out to screw you and thru the various opinions stated that was not implied. Only some are.

"You all have a paranoid evening and remember as one wise (chicken little) said The Sky is Falling (duck). " ---Whats that saying? a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

BobS · July 17, 2007 12:12AM

The big thing is I don't want to screw anyone over at the show with bogus packs, and I want to establish a reputation. I'm pretty good at detecting the obvious hack-jobs, but I'll pay the premium for the 80's boxes for that little extra bit of security. Also, I think having anything older than 1980 graded will also help etablish "some" credibility.

Goodsport40 · July 17, 2007 12:51AM

Bob:

I think this is a great idea. Most shows I have attended in the last 3-5 years are lacking in unopened product. The only suggestion I would have is get some cheaper wax, such as 1989 Fleer for Griffey RC's, 1983 Donruss for Gwynn, Boggs and Ryno, etc.

Just my opinion, but If I saw a well presented table with a good variety of price points clearly marked, I would stay at that table until my money was spent! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Robert

BobS · July 17, 2007 1:31AM

Well, here is what I came up with, using BBXchange for boxes and recently closed auctions on Ebay for the graded packs. I can get all of this for around $2,700. That's about $300 under budget so I have some wiggle room:

Boxes:

1989 UD baseball foil box
1989 fleer baseball cello box
1986 topps baseball rack box
1985 topps baseball cello box
1983 topps baseball wax box
1982 topps baseball wax box
1982 topps baseball wax box

1984 topps football wax box
1986 topss football wax box

Packs (graded 7.5 through 9.5):

2 packs 1974 topps baseball wax
2 packs 1975 topps baseball wax
2 packs 1978 topps baseball wax
2 packs 1975 topps mini baseball wax
2 1979 topps baseball 3-pack wax trays
1 late 1960's topps baseball cello
1 early 1970's wax or cello

So what do you all think. Additions, deletions, etc.

CDsNuts · July 17, 2007 1:52AM

Good selection. I would steer clear of the wax tray because you're only going to get pack collectors to pay the premium for those. You're better off with straight 79 wax or rack.

Also, not sure if you're into basketball at all, but a few options for you are 88-89 Fleer and 1981-82 Topps. Those both sell well and are within your budget.

The more and more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm sold on this as a business model. If you can build up repeat customers, you could basically use BBCE and DA as suppliers. There are still people who will only buy vintage unopened material if they can inspect it in person and if you do enough shows you could probably build up a nice customer base. Also, don't fall into the trap of opening your product. It's a long, long road to rehabilitation once you get the ripping bug.

bifff257 · July 17, 2007 4:44AM

<< Also, don't fall into the trap of opening your product. It's a long, long road to rehabilitation once you get the ripping bug. >>

Most of us would eat up all our product/profit ripping wax while having a beer and a hot dog at the show waiting for customers to show up.

BobS · July 17, 2007 6:20AM

I hear ya ' - that's going to be the hardest part. I think I'll give everything to my wife to hide until the day before the show. She's REAL good at hiding things. ooops, did I just say that, my bad, she's a princess

diamondman · July 17, 2007 7:55AM

<< Tragically, no, there isn't. Especially when dealing with stuff that isn't factory sealed. >>

Lee: Love your one liners also had just got back from happy hour, was just having a laugh.
Bob: if you live in Ohio check out the national in Cleveland if you can. Nationals are always fun.

Whats that saying? a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Very True

Mike

CDsNuts · July 17, 2007 8:05AM

diamond, only I'm allowed to drunkenly rant on the boards. I signed an exclusive deal with PSA.

grote15 · July 17, 2007 10:58AM

.i can tell you from experience that you will get burned sometimes and its not fun...but if you do your research and look at people feedback on ebay

Buying unopened product on ebay is like negotiating a minefield. I'd say about half the unopened packs for sale at any given time are either resealed, fabricated at a pack factory or otherwise comprimised or tampered with. I'd only trust a very few select dealers in this area. When you find a reputable one, stick with him! Paying a premium is worth it in the long run, even though the low prices the garbage gets tends to lower the overall value of legit product, unfortunately. Good luck!

Bosox1976 · July 17, 2007 11:20AM

Consider keeping the BBCExchange stuff in the sealed UPS box until you have a serious buyer - Steve's tamper-evident tape could be reassuring to those in the know.

Boopotts · July 17, 2007 11:33AM

I would also suggest a little sign that lists what cards can be pulled from each pack, and what those cards sell for in PSA 10. So, if you've got a 1984 football box out put a sign out in front that says 'possible Marino RC, PSA 10 $1400 (or whatever it sells for now), Elway PSA 10 xx$$, and so on.

diamondman · July 17, 2007 2:47PM

<< diamond, only I'm allowed to drunkenly rant on the boards. I signed an exclusive deal with PSA. >>

LEE : they lied twoi u , and for the right price I can hook u up with the right doctor and the right drugs. pls wire me enough money and life will be happy. drunk again and happy

flatfoot816 · July 17, 2007 9:06PM

fill up your table--hot prospects like Sid the Kid Crosby will get more people to your table for relatively cheap packs--once they are there to try for a good rookie, maybe you land a few other sales--

good luck--I always buy unopened when I go to a show!!

Advice needed - selling unopened product

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