SMS Coins and the Registry

tompkins · April 20, 2002 3:04PM

I know there is talk, periodically, of where SMS coins belong: in the proof or the MS sets. Has there ever been any consideration of an SMS registry set? The fifteen SMS coins of 1965-1967? Or you could broaden it by including the mid-90's SMS coins, though, to me, they seem like a different kind of beast that I would be incloined to not include.

Any thoughts?

Pete

wondercoin · April 20, 2002 3:21PM

Pete: If you put SMS coins on the "Mint State" side you are left with Registry Mint State sets having (2) different 1965, 1966, 1967 coins, while the proof Registry sets have nothing for those years. A silly result imho. So, putting the SMS coins on the proof side makes perfect sense to me, especially with the CAM and DCAM designations.

But, as Oreville commented recently, it is hard to tell the difference between a below average SMS coin and a high grade regular issue for these years in some denominations.

A board member's recent experience with a regular issue coin illustrates Oreville's concern. The board member plucked it from an original roll and it was a beautiful specimen - the finest he had ever seen. It was slabbed as an MS67 SMS. He then spoke with the grading company and got it changed to non-SMS after "proving his case" (proof again that the grading companies listen to average collectors just as much as dealers). He then asked me to submit it for him to try for an MS68 grade feeling he had already essentially "pressed his luck". It came back 67SMS, which needed to be corrected again to regular issue!!! After this experience, maybe these SMS coins should be allowed to be placed in both MS and proof collections!!

Wondercoin

cosmicdebris · April 20, 2002 8:23PM

The topic of a SMS Registry Set has been brought up in the past several times only to be shot down by David Hall. Some suggestions for this set were the 1965 to 1967 coins, 1994 and 1997 SMS Jeffersons, the 1998 SMS Kennedy and any other coin that was not minted for circulation but only offered in a mint set. Which I believe included some Ikes, SBAs and a Kennedy or two.

cosmicdebris · April 20, 2002 8:30PM

Here is a link to one of the threads about it.

LINK

itsnotjustme · April 20, 2002 9:51PM

I strongly support a 65-67 SMS Registry Set! I've built my own as I like these coins, and had access to a large number of original unsearched sets.

goldenpony · April 20, 2002 10:47PM

I have always like the idea of a SMS registry. SMS coins are special and an important part of the hobby. If they can be considered important enough to have their own special "slot" in the 1950-present type set why can't they have their own registry set?

DHeath · April 21, 2002 12:12AM

I'd love to see a set registry for SMS, and agree with the consensus that they belong on the PR side if only because of the uniformity of appearance (the same logic puts the 98 Matte Kennedy in the mint set). These are my favorite moderns, and finding cam and dcam examples of all denominations is no easy feat.

cosmicdebris · April 21, 2002 12:46AM

This was my suggested set:

1965 to 1967 all 15 SMS coins
1970D, 1987P, 1987D, and the 1998 matte Kennedys
1973P, 1973D Ikes
1976 silver coins (3 coins MS not proof)
1981-PDS SBAs
1994, 1997 matte Jeffersons
1996 W Roosevelts
2000 millenium Sac

31 coins in all

All coins used regular issue designs but were only minted for collectors and they were not minted as regular proofs.

DHeath · April 21, 2002 12:58AM

All only available in mint sets. I think that's a perfect composition. I hope somebody listens.

cosmicdebris · April 21, 2002 1:03AM

You know what I think I forgot one. The 1999 SBA.

itsnotjustme · April 21, 2002 1:51AM

Bill,
The 99 SBA was released into circulation. Maybe we'll need the 2002 Sac?

You did forget the Blue Ikes, 71, 72, 73, 74.

I'm still fond of the pure set, 65-67, but maybe we could have two??

braddick · April 21, 2002 2:17AM

And the purist would insist on the 1964 SMS coins.

littlewicher · April 21, 2002 3:55AM

I support a SMS registry set. The only thing is, you guys shouldn't make it so confusing.

goldenpony · April 21, 2002 4:28AM

I like the idea very much. BUT! You don't need to convince us, Mr. Hall is the one that needs to make the final call. With his reluctance to do it in the past and the on going "fixes" to the current registry, he'll pass on it again.

That being said, I really think we as a group should approach PCGS with a proposal for a SMS set or sets. What does anyone else think about this??

littlewicher · April 21, 2002 4:33AM

Why wouldn't David Hall want a SMS registry set? Maybe because he's self centered and feels like he's the "supreme" registry god?

itsnotjustme · April 21, 2002 4:40AM

Maybe we could have a poll on the desire for a set, and the contents.

Q1 Should there be an SMS registry set?
Q2 Should the 1964 SMS coins be included?
Q3 Should the 1965-1967 SMS coins be included?
Q4 Should the 1994, 1997, and 1998 SMS coins be included?
Q5 Should the Mint Set only issue coins be included (73 P&D Ikes, 70-D Kennedy, 87 P&D Kennedys, 81 PD&S SBAs, 96-W Roosevelt)?
Q6 Should the Blue Ikes and 1976-S silver mint set coins be included)?
Q7 Should the 2000 Millenium Sacagawea Dollar be included?

Any other questions before running a poll? (Please don't reply here--wait for the poll)

I think PCGS did listen to us pretty well on the type set contents. Perhaps it would work again!

braddick · April 21, 2002 4:47AM

Brian- The fault of a poll is that of course most collectors interested in a SMS Registry will vote OUT the 1964 SMS coins. No one probably owns any or is likely too. Registries should NOT be 'custom fitted' to appeal to the ease of collecting.

tompkins · April 21, 2002 5:41AM

I'd add one more question to Brian's list:
Should there be two sets: one that is only the fifteen 65-67 SMS coins; and a second that is all-inclusive (all-inclusive subject to the answers to most of Brian's questions).

Pete

tompkins · April 21, 2002 6:04AM

I just sent the following email to David Hall. Hopefully, he'll respond soon.

Pete
-------------------------------
David,
I posted a question to the PCGS Set Registry message board regarding SMS coins. At issue is whether there is any concensus about the desireability of having one (or perhaps two) SMS registry sets. Please take a look at the comments from the forum members (primarily positive toward the idea, with the expected disagreement as to what such a set should consist of), and, perhaps, weigh in with your thoughts as to why this wasn't done (I know it was discussed in the past) or the possibility of adding such a set (or sets) in the future. I realize you are in the middle of a huge undertaking right now, so this may not have been the time to raise this issue, but here it is anyway.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=85478

Thanks for your thoughts.

Pete Tompkins

cosmicdebris · April 21, 2002 7:26AM

Pete I also sent an email to BJ to ask David Hall if he would be interested in sending out an email like he did for the Type sets asking registry participants their opinion on these SMS sets.

cosmicdebris · April 21, 2002 7:39AM

Ooops on the 1999 SBA.

But just so you know this time around this set will probably happen since I sold my 1994 and 1997 MS69FS Jefferson SMS nickels.

DHeath · April 21, 2002 8:02AM

Pat, I agree with you about the regestry not being set up for our convienence, but I think the 1964 SMS (what are their - 12) was a sample set that was not released to the public.

braddick · April 21, 2002 10:14AM

I wish that were true- that they were sample sets not released to the public- it would make NOT adding them so convenient- but that isn't true. They were a Mint product aimed at the Super Collector and WERE released into the hands of Numismatists. Shoot!

Typetone · April 21, 2002 11:55AM

My view is that we should have a set, but that it should just be the 15 pieces from 65-67. They were a special group for a specific time. I certainly agree that some of your other suggested coins only came out in mint sets, but that doesn't give them the same uniqueness as the 65-67 pieces. THe 65-67 pieces were in place of proof sets. As far as I know all the other ideas came out in years that we had proof sets.

Cosmic, to get things going why not form an SMS collectors society, much like the IKE collectors society that was just formed. You could then run your own registry with your own rules. With all the computer expertise you guys have, it should be a piece of cake to set up a website. Talk to Chris Serdenes "Fantisize", to get some ideas. It would certainly work to promote SMS collecting. Heck, I might even join.

Cheers

Greg

cosmicdebris · April 21, 2002 7:44PM

Greg that sounds like a great idea, however, with my new job ( new since February ) I just don't have the time to commit to a project like that. Besides I think once the current workload of adding already planned sets and weighting the rest of the sets is done PCGS will do something with the SMS sets.

keets · April 21, 2002 11:51PM

braddick---where is information available regarding the 64 SMS? my feeling with them is that such a vague release, where the actual number is in doubt and it's not made public or in a mintage that makes it reasonably available to the public, constitutes calling it "not a regular issue." i've never seen the coins listed anywhere, never even heard about them till i saw a 64 SMS jefferson on teletrade. if they are a regular issue they should be included, i just believe they were never intended as such.

the idea of an SMS set is a good one. i like the variety of coins involved; differences in production, a lot of denominations, and the time span of the coins involved are appealing. along with the fact that i already have quite a few of them. which brings up a question i've been wondering about. if a coin is registered in one set, can it be registered in another set?

cosmicdebris · April 22, 2002 4:29AM

I just got the below from BJ, which is a reply to Pete's email:

<< <i>Pete...I like the idea of the 15 coin SMS set. I also like the idea of the "Mint Set only" set which includes any circulation strike coins that were only available in Mint sets.

BJ...Let's do this after we do the other 20th Century series and the 1934 to date mint sets and proof sets.

David >>

You can all thank me for selling my 2 SMS Jefferson Nickels, I knew this set would happen after I sold them.

keets · April 22, 2002 6:15AM

does this mean they'll modify the existing sets to remove the SMS coins from them?

itsnotjustme · April 22, 2002 8:33AM

Pat... I didn't see that in there... I saw two new sets. 1) 15 coin SMS set 2) Mint Set Only Coins

tompkins · April 22, 2002 10:44AM

Cosmicdebris quoted the email from David in its entirety. I see nothing in his answer that implies the SMS coins would be deleted from the proof sets they are in currently.

Pete

(Bill: since selling your Jeffersons is obviously why this is going forward, maybe you have a couple of '67 SMS coins you could sell just to make sure!!

)

itsnotjustme · April 22, 2002 11:06AM

In honor of the future set...my new coin.

(Bill - enough CAM on this one.)

keets · April 22, 2002 11:58AM

wowzer brian!!! it looks like that eagle's about to flap his wings and fly away. no DCAM? how'd you like to find a 65 that looks like that-----just a beauty!!

itsnotjustme · April 22, 2002 12:21PM

Keets,
I'll wait to see it in person, but it appears to blow by all other CAM SMS coins I've seen. I paid for this coin, but at least it was below CU price guide

For this premium CAM, I thought it was worth it.

goldenpony · April 22, 2002 1:57PM

Brian,
Nice coin!!! It fiqures I sell my SMS coins and they are going to do a set.

Oh well.....Half of the fun building a set is the hunt!!!!

osirisMMII · April 22, 2002 3:33PM

Ok....... I'm not gonna make any friends with this post but the idea of an SMS set absolutely SUCKS! The original SMS coins, 1965-1967, were made as the "collector" coins for those years, due to the coin shortage, and were basically "cheaply" & quickly produced proof coins. They belong in with the proof sets. Period. (Maybe there would be less confusion if the grading companies graded them SMS67 or SMS66CAM instead of MS coins.) The other "SMS" coins were entirely different - minted as part of a commemerative set - not as proof replacements - if anything they belong in the commemerative set paired up with the coins they were originally sold with as a set.

Ok...... I feel better for getting that out......... and yeah......... just my opinion.

cosmicdebris · April 23, 2002 1:14AM

Well it looks like things are all better now. I sold my 1994 SMS Jefferson for $125 and my 1997 SMS Jefferson for $325. I just picked the 1994 for $100 and the 1997 for $350 so I guess I broke even.

cosmicdebris · April 23, 2002 1:28AM

Brian here are my 2 SMS MS67CAM entries:

SMS Coins and the Registry

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