Suspicious
nightcrawler729
Posts: 470 ✭✭
Collecting all things Pittsburgh.
Completed my Clemente Basic Registry (2007 - 2014)!
Positive transactions with oakesy25,jasoneggert,swartz1,MBMiller25,gregm13,kid4hof03,HoopGuru33,Reese3333,BPorter26,Davemri,CuseSteve,Geoff76
Completed my Clemente Basic Registry (2007 - 2014)!
Positive transactions with oakesy25,jasoneggert,swartz1,MBMiller25,gregm13,kid4hof03,HoopGuru33,Reese3333,BPorter26,Davemri,CuseSteve,Geoff76
0
Comments
I get junk graded but not vintage Mantles
<< <i>It doesn't look like regular card stock to me, and the colors are bleeding. >>
LOL. Maybe it's a trimmed reprint. Actually, if I paid 200$ (or more) for this card and realized it was not only a reprint, but one that had gotten a haircut, I'd think that was kind of funny. Anytime you get clowned that bad you almost have to laugh it off.
And please-- no talk of how this big, bad unscrupulous seller is taking advantage of the fawns in the Ebay forest. The high bidder has a feedback rating just south of 1000, so it looks very much like another mouth breather who thinks he's going to grade and flip this card for a four figure profit. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Like I said, the wonderful thing about Ebay is that the markets clear. If you can find someone that stupid to cough up this kind of money on a fraudulent card then more power to you.
Its funny how in your world sellers with little feedback are all scam artists yet all sellers who have been around a while ( like one you mention in another post tonight ) are automatically good people with smart business sense and couldnt possibly be scammers trying to pass off altered cards to unsuspecting buyers.
For the record, I believe something is funny with that Mantle. Just like I think something is funny with many of the '71 cards going right now mentioned in the other post.
The only difference between the two is that one has been selling altered junk to people for years. I guess in some peoples world it makes them better because they thought of it first.
-- Yogi Berra
is VERO.
Unless stake-holders in the collectible market can figure out a
way to insert themselves into the VERO scheme - or a VERO
facsimilie - there may never be an efficient way to deal with
these problems on EBAY.
Any of the CLCT TPG-categories have standing to participate in
VERO. I do not know if they currently do or not; but, they should,
and it would be a good start toward educating EBAY's T&S about
the importance of "keeping it real." (Participation by CLCT's prospective
VERO Reps would only grant standing to cancel counterfeit TPG listings,
and NOT the kind of trimmed/counterfeit raw-card issue that is the direct
subject of this thread.)
TOPPS et al should be actively protecting their TM through VERO. It
appears that the card companies are concerned about TM violations
of their current production, but see no vested connection to the
vintage product --- the content of which they contracted to own,
but may no longer own. If TOPPS decided that dilution of the brand
happened each time a 1959 Mantle or Aaron card was "messed
with," as VERO participants, their Reps could clean up EBAY's raw
card market in a matter of a few months.
I have had long and personal chats with the T&S gang, and their
basic position that "the issues are complex," is currently the biggest
deterent to any worthwhile resolution to our problem. The frauds on
EBAY are NOT complex, they are easy to find, and they will be easy
to stop --- when/if "the venue" decides to do the right thing.
T&S is concerned about "mistakes." They believe that it is easier
for an office girl to accurately spot fake designer handbags from
a scan than it is for the most skilled among us to identify a fake
or altered card from a scan. T&S is right to be concerned; thousands
of honest sellers are wrongly accused each month of TM violations,
and even though there is an "appeals process," it is not perfect by
any means. But, if we want the market cleaned-up, we probably
have to be prepared to temporarily lose a few of our own listings
from time to time.
<< <i>Boo,
Its funny how in your world sellers with little feedback are all scam artists yet all sellers who have been around a while ( like one you mention in another post tonight ) are automatically good people with smart business sense and couldnt possibly be scammers trying to pass off altered cards to unsuspecting buyers.
For the record, I believe something is funny with that Mantle. Just like I think something is funny with many of the '71 cards going right now mentioned in the other post.
The only difference between the two is that one has been selling altered junk to people for years. I guess in some peoples world it makes them better because they thought of it first. >>
Yes, sellers with feedback ratings of 11 who mention PSA in their auction descriptions and who are selling raw Mantle cards from the 1950's that look about 1/8th of an inch short and who don't take Paypal are usually scammers 'in my world'. Go ahead and order me some tin foil hats if you feel so inclined.
I have purchased over 100 cards from Waverly. None of them-- not one-- has been altered; or at least not to the point where the alteration is detectable. As far as the rest of this nutty little post goes, I'll take each point one by one.
1) I know nothing about Waverly. He could kill kittens in his spare time for all I know. And I certainly wouldn't say he's 'automatically a good person'.
2) He does have smart business sense. Or at least he does in my opinion.
3) He absolutely could be passing off altered cards to unsuspecting buyers. He's never passed one off on me, and obviously I can't speak to your or anyone else's experiences. And anyway, if he did pass one off on me I'm good enough to notice it and return it. I'll side with basestealer on this one. The prices he gets for cards, IMO, wouldn't be nearly this high if people weren't buying his stuff to grade. And since the grading community is fairly small (but also fairly solvent), it suggests he has repeat buyers. Would he have repeat buyers if his cards kept coming back altered? I'll let you stew on that.
In any case, you I think make the same mistake that a lot of people make who more or less see the hobby through the lenses of someone who doesn't spend much time circulating raw cards. For one thing, there are a lot-- and I do mean A LOT-- of altered cards out there that have yet to be identified as altered. And this is especially true for 1971's. Ask around-- either on these boards, or amongst other hobbyists-- and see how many people have actually seen a raw 1971 set in NM-MT that was comprised exclusively of uncolored cards. Maybe Bruce will chime in, or another one of the long time dealers who frequent these boards. Speaking for myself, in the last five years I've seen ZERO. If it's raw, and it looks mint (or even close), then there's a better than usual chance it's altered. Now I don't know where Waverly gets his cards, but I think it's possible that a lot of the card he gets are already altered. And instead of jerking around with a black light, or checking each card for bleeding, he just offers to refund dissatisfied customers. If you are thinking of getting 1971's graded, and you can't personally identify a recolored card when one falls in your lap, then as far as I'm concerned that is on YOU, not the seller, so long as the seller is willing to offer you a refund if you deem the card unacceptable.
And you know what? Apparently 99.99% of Waverly's customers agree with me, considering that exactly 4 people have left him a negative in the last six years. I know, I know-- all the people who've left him + feedback are morons who aren't blessed with the reservoir of hobby knowledge that you yourself possess. He's pawning off 1000 trimmed cards every week, and NOBODY but you and a few others on these boards have figured that out. Scottsusor has spend $1000's with Waverly over the past six months, but he's just another wannabe who keeps coming back for more, time and time again, despite the fact that all the cards he buys from Waverly are coming back altered.
C'mon, bro. This is solve by inspection stuff. I recognize that you're all bunged up because you ended up with a handful of altered cards, but nobody is selling a high percentage of raw, doctored NM-MT vintage cards on Ebay and getting + feedback on 999 out of 1000 transactions.
Try passing off a counterfeit bill, get caught and than explain your logic to the authorites. Tell them you didnt print the bill, that it was given to you in another transaction and that you didnt have the time to inspect all your money. Let me know how that works out for you.
If you havnt received any altered cards from waverly than consider yourself very fortunate. If you feel its a rare occurance that people DO receive altered cards from them you may also consider yourself fortunate for having the naive bliss of a child.
In my world a seller with an 11 feedback who mentions PSA and doesnt take paypal is almost assuredly a scammer.
Also in my world are scammers who have been doing so for quite some time and have learned the ins and outs of scamming better than the newbie. The fellas who know how to give refunds before their act is outed. The guys who find out their cards are altered yet will still resell as unaltered.
You certainly have a great outlook on being scammed. It is on the buyer since they offer a refund ? What if the card isnt returned within 7 days ? What if the buyer needed help to determine the cards authenticity and that took more than 7 days to do so ? Too bad on them I suppose.
I suppose thats just part of waverlys smart business practices...dont give the buyer enough time to determine if the card is altered or not. Im sure their 7 day return policy was created at least partially with that exact thought in mind.
In my world those guys are just as dangerous and harmful to the collecting community. Probably more so, at least in my world.
And for the record your assumption on my experience with raw cards, especially '71's couldnt have been further off base. You wouldnt care about that though, as long as you get to spew your self righteous garbage where you and only you are correct and every word you speak must be true and sound since it came from you.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>I would consider it the sellers responsibilty to assure what they are selling is on the level.
Try passing off a counterfeit bill, get caught and than explain your logic to the authorites. Tell them you didnt print the bill, that it was given to you in another transaction and that you didnt have the time to inspect all your money. Let me know how that works out for you.
If you havnt received any altered cards from waverly than consider yourself very fortunate. If you feel its a rare occurance that people DO receive altered cards from them you may also consider yourself fortunate for having the naive bliss of a child.
In my world a seller with an 11 feedback who mentions PSA and doesnt take paypal is almost assuredly a scammer.
Also in my world are scammers who have been doing so for quite some time and have learned the ins and outs of scamming better than the newbie. The fellas who know how to give refunds before their act is outed. The guys who find out their cards are altered yet will still resell as unaltered.
You certainly have a great outlook on being scammed. It is on the buyer since they offer a refund ? What if the card isnt returned within 7 days ? What if the buyer needed help to determine the cards authenticity and that took more than 7 days to do so ? Too bad on them I suppose.
I suppose thats just part of waverlys smart business practices...dont give the buyer enough time to determine if the card is altered or not. Im sure their 7 day return policy was created at least partially with that exact thought in mind.
In my world those guys are just as dangerous and harmful to the collecting community. Probably more so, at least in my world.
And for the record your assumption on my experience with raw cards, especially '71's couldnt have been further off base. You wouldnt care about that though, as long as you get to spew your self righteous garbage where you and only you are correct and every word you speak must be true and sound since it came from you. >>
Wonderful. Then we'll agree to disagree. One last point re: the whole altered card debate. Most rational people would factor in the possibility that a card was altered in their buy price. Example: There is a 1960 Yaz in a PSA 8 holder, and there is a raw 1960 Yaz that looks NM-MT but may be trimmed. Obviously any rational buyer will pay more for the first card, assuming that he cares about whether or not cards are altered. But how MUCH more he's willing to pay should be essentially a function of how sure/unsure he is in the legitimacy of the second card. Extending this logic, so long as he CALCULATED CORRECTLY he shouldn't really care if the second Yaz ends up being trimmed, because he accounted for that in his buy price. If he didn't calculate correctly then he has only himself to blame. RichG didn't understand this, and I'm not sure you will either, but I think that if you sit down and think this through you'll agree with me.
If you, or anyone else, doesn't figure in the possibility that a card you buy raw may be altered into your buy price then again, that's on you-- not the seller. You probably won't agree with this, since you seem firmly entrenched in the Cult of the Victim, but it's a point to ponder. And as far as your feeble little jabs regarding my 'self righteousness', and the 'garbage I spew', is concerned, please recognize that I don't share your enthusiasm for hijacked threads and senseless flame wars. If you want to insult someone then you can go track down your boy toy Axtell, because I'm just not willing to play that.
Edit to add: You have extensive experience with '71's, and you need PSA to tell you if one's been recolored? I'd hate to see you locked in a room with a box of NM '62's.
First you assume that if anyone " thinks " than they most certainly would have to agree with you.
Your complete and total infatuation with yourself and your self proclaimed wisdom never ceases to amaze me.
Secondly, I have enough knowledge of '71 cards to know that I shouldnt buy any from waverly. Never did I even hint that I had purchased one or been scammed by an altered one. I was pointing out the fact that others may NOT have enough experience to tell within 7 days, thus needing PSA's help.
Your insults regarding the room fool of '62's clearly point out your character, or lack of. Thank you for doing so far better and quicker than I have time for.
Your rant about calculating what is to be bid based on whether the card may or may not be altered is one of the most foolish posts I have seen on here, even from you. If the card is trimmed than paying anything more than ZERO for it is too much.
And once again you choose in the end to resort to your " flame wars with Axtell " nonsense.
If you had the first clue you would know I wasnt part of even 1% of any war with Axtell and that anything that went on regarding him and I was based solely on a personal attack I received either in a thread or private message.
I am sorry you cant see the difference between someone disagreeing with your almighty word and an outright nosensical flame war.
-- Yogi Berra
"Try passing off a counterfeit bill, get caught and than explain your logic to the authorites.
Tell them you didnt print the bill, that it was given to you in another transaction and that
you didnt have the time to inspect all your money. Let me know how that works out for you."
///////////////////////////////////////////////
EBAY T&S agrees with those concepts. I have even heard them use the counterfeit money
example. They are 100% correct, in my view.
The temptation for sophisticated folks to assume the buyer should have been more cautious
is a strong one. If I relied on the better angels of my nature, I would certainly succumb to it.
But, reason and financial self-interest tell me that, unchecked, fraud in any market in which
I am invested hurts ME.
It may seem that there is an infinite supply of future collectors to keep the collectors universe
perpetually in the black, but it only seems like that. Each time a buyer gets burned, there is
one less outlet to help ME get rid of items I want to turn. Burned buyers tell their friends who
tell their friends, and at some unkown point there is cumulative damge that shrinks the pool
of newbies; absent that pool, I hope ALL of US really enjoy owning our collectibles, because
we WILL be owning them for a loooooooong time.
In the collectible fields - all of them - there is always an ethical quandry. As the much greater
bearers of sophistication regarding valuations, we are always in the position of being able
to buy things from folks who know less than we do --- and to make a great deal of EZ money
doing so. Most people who stay in the business end of collectibles for decades have to have
a pretty adjustable moral-compass. MOST do their "crimes" on the buying-side, and would
never think of cheating a customer they were selling to. Some, and these are the ones that
have ruined EBAY, mess in their own nests (and MINE) by cheating our collectively shared
supply of buyers. Looking out after those buyers is a self-interested act that coincidentally
contains righteous elements. That's how I see it.
I do not have to have purchased cards from them to know they often sell altered cards. It is called knowing many collectors who are on the level who HAVE purchased from them and been burned. That is enough for me to know what has transpired often enough ( more than once is really enough for me ) and to know not to purchase out of caution that I too may be the next one to be burned.
Never did I accuse wavery of altering cards. I merely pointed out my experience in talking to other collectors who have purchased altered cards from them, and my feelings and opinions regarding their level of responsibility in knowing what they are selling.
Regarding the negative feedback the seller received, it is also very possible that many, many other negatives were given that could have been mutually withdrawn. That is common practice among big sellers. They have to pay a fee to do so, but when dealing in volume the $$ laid out to remove any neg is well worth it to them.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>basestealer,
I do not have to have purchased cards from them to know they often sell altered cards. It is called knowing many collectors who are on the level who HAVE purchased from them and been burned. That is enough for me to know what has transpired often enough ( more than once is really enough for me ) and to know not to purchase out of caution that I too may be the next one to be burned.
Never did I accuse wavery of altering cards. I merely pointed out my experience in talking to other collectors who have purchased altered cards from them, and my feelings and opinions regarding their level of responsibility in knowing what they are selling.
Regarding the negative feedback the seller received, it is also very possible that many, many other negatives were given that could have been mutually withdrawn. That is common practice among big sellers. They have to pay a fee to do so, but when dealing in volume the $$ laid out to remove any neg is well worth it to them. >>
According to his feedback profile: 47007 feedback received by waverly82 (7 ratings mutually withdrawn).
As for the counterfeit money example, it's bogus. "Try telling that to the scary powers that be who will get you!" lol, I would have no problem telling them to shove it. And that would suffice, simply because the law doesn't criminalize passing a counterfeit bill. The law makes it a felony to create counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud, and a felony to knowingly pass counterfeit currency with the intent to defraud. If you received a bogus bill in change and didn't realize it was bogus and spent it elsewhere, you are not guilty of any crime. Of course if the bill is detected by a clerk and they conduct an investigation you might be questioned. Big deal. Questioned does not equate to charges or even conviction.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
You would not be charged with a crime, if there was no
evidence that you intentionally passed the note, knowing
it to be counterfeit.
You would be liable to the merchant in a civil action to
recover the money lost when the bill was forfeited to
the authorities.
ie: The "hot-potato rule" does not apply, if the person stuck
with the bill can prove where it came from.
<< <i>"Of course if the bill is detected by a clerk and they conduct an investigation you might be questioned. "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
You would not be charged with a crime, if there was no
evidence that you intentionally passed the note, knowing
it to be counterfeit.
You would be liable to the merchant in a civil action to
recover the money lost when the bill was forfeited to
the authorities.
ie: The "hot-potato rule" does not apply, if the person stuck
with the bill can prove where it came from. >>
Yes, and how this relates to an eBay seller, or waverly in particular is that he is responsible for the product he sells if it turns out to be counterfeit or alterred. He already offers a refund policy. And as I said, one can open an investigation via other avenues if they have evidence he has defrauded someone. Thus far, I know of nobody doing this.
/////////////////////
Neither do I.
As illustrated in the counterfeit example, the fact that
a dealer mistakenly sells a defective card - or even
a whole bunch of them - does not mean that he did
it intentionally. That is what the refund policy and the
other remedies are for.
90-days - inside the PayPal window - is more than enough
time to have PSA take a look. If there was a problem with
any such card, the buyer could easily get PP to solve it
with a letter from PSA.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>I would consider it the sellers responsibilty to assure what they are selling is on the level.
Try passing off a counterfeit bill, get caught and than explain your logic to the authorites. Tell them you didnt print the bill, that it was given to you in another transaction and that you didnt have the time to inspect all your money. Let me know how that works out for you.
If you havnt received any altered cards from waverly than consider yourself very fortunate. If you feel its a rare occurance that people DO receive altered cards from them you may also consider yourself fortunate for having the naive bliss of a child.
In my world a seller with an 11 feedback who mentions PSA and doesnt take paypal is almost assuredly a scammer.
Also in my world are scammers who have been doing so for quite some time and have learned the ins and outs of scamming better than the newbie. The fellas who know how to give refunds before their act is outed. The guys who find out their cards are altered yet will still resell as unaltered.
You certainly have a great outlook on being scammed. It is on the buyer since they offer a refund ? What if the card isnt returned within 7 days ? What if the buyer needed help to determine the cards authenticity and that took more than 7 days to do so ? Too bad on them I suppose.
I suppose thats just part of waverlys smart business practices...dont give the buyer enough time to determine if the card is altered or not. Im sure their 7 day return policy was created at least partially with that exact thought in mind.
In my world those guys are just as dangerous and harmful to the collecting community. Probably more so, at least in my world.
And for the record your assumption on my experience with raw cards, especially '71's couldnt have been further off base. You wouldnt care about that though, as long as you get to spew your self righteous garbage where you and only you are correct and every word you speak must be true and sound since it came from you. >>
I'll try to keep this civil.
Let's say you have one card in a PSA 8 holder, and that card has a market value of $400. Now let's say a NM-MT raw copy of the same card is next to it, and you think there's a 50% chance that the raw card is legitimate-- and a 50% chance that it's trimmed. Now, for the sake of simplicity we'll make the following assumptions:
1) We're not going to calculate grading fees into the equation for the time being
2) The raw card, if trimmed, is indeed worth $0.00
3) Variance is not an issue; i.e., we are for the time being only concerned with the expected value of the card
4) We are risk neutral
With this in mind, the amount you should be willing to pay for the raw card is $200. Extending this analogy to Ebay, let's say you see a mint looking '56 Mantle, raw, being sold. How much should you bid? If you're 100% sure it's fake, then you would set a bid amount equal to what you felt the value was for a counterfeit card. If you think the chances that it is real and unaltered are <0% but <100%, then you a) figure out what the card would be worth to you if you knew for certain it was legit, and b) place a bid that is commensurate with your confidence in the cards legitimacy.
A lot of guys-- like you-- either can't or don't think this way. You say silly stuff like 'That is enough for me to know what has transpired often enough ( more than once is really enough for me ) and to know not to purchase out of caution that I too may be the next one to be burned.' Oh, really? So if some guy who had been selling scads of high grade unaltered vintage cards for NM book price suddenly sold ONE altered card you'd never buy from him again? Puleeeze. Of course you 'may get burned'. That's self evident. What's important is HOW OFTEN you would get burned, and how this % is translated in your buy price.
But enough of all that. Either you get it or you don't, Brian. I'm happy to discuss this in greater detail with you, but to be honest I could do without the personal attacks and ad hoc counterarguments. If you aren't capable of adjusting bid prices based on confidence levels, and if you need PSA to tell you a card has been recolored, then you're probably just better off buying already graded cards. Those of us who aren't similarly handicapped will continue to do things our way.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>The 57 Mantle "she" is offering is a reprint. >>
That's how they all appeared to me. I can't conclude it because the scanner could be throwing back false negatives... but the '57 and the '59 for sure don't appear authentic. If they are counterfeit it would be interesting to see what sort of card stock she printed them on. In her past auctions she sold low-grade authentic Mantles in lots for around $100. She also sold graded cards (threw them in as bonuses) of worthless score and junk era commons (thus, she is not new or naive to the grading card services).
<< <i>
<< <i>The 57 Mantle "she" is offering is a reprint. >>
That's how they all appeared to me. I can't conclude it because the scanner could be throwing back false negatives... but the '57 and the '59 for sure don't appear authentic. If they are counterfeit it would be interesting to see what sort of card stock she printed them on. In her past auctions she sold low-grade authentic Mantles in lots for around $100. She also sold graded cards (threw them in as bonuses) of worthless score and junk era commons (thus, she is not new or naive to the grading card services). >>
Agreed. "She" (unlikely it's a woman) is definitely not new to ebay for sure. Using phrases like "pack fresh" is not the sign of a newbie, naive seller. Yes, "she" could have picked up these phrases from other auctions, but "she" has far too much basic knowledge about cards to be new. So is "she" a shady dealer using a different name for these auctions or a pure scammer? In any event, not good because no way a reputable seller would present auctions in this manner.
And as you implied, "she" is probably using the old scammer trick of selling some cheaper lots, getting good feedback and then coming in for the kill with expensive lots, and then away "she" goes with the buyers money - scammer 101. Remember, a scammer doesn't have to come in with a 52 Mantle - they can do it this way, make a thousand or two and that's not a bad weeks pay for these vermin.
I get tired of talking about it because ebay ain't going to listen to us anyway, but this chit could be so easy to stop by using a simple series of cross-reference checks such as SS #'s, addresses, banks, etc and stop giving out ebay accounts to people such as this. A 12 year old could setup the software to prevent this garbage, but ebay simply has no financial incentive to do it.
-
Hi, I'm interested in bidding on this card and sending this in for grading. What happens if PSA thinks that this card is not authentic - would I get a refund?
Response:
"you mean to tell me that you cannot look at the card and tell if its real or not."
Completed my Clemente Basic Registry (2007 - 2014)!
Positive transactions with oakesy25,jasoneggert,swartz1,MBMiller25,gregm13,kid4hof03,HoopGuru33,Reese3333,BPorter26,Davemri,CuseSteve,Geoff76
/////////////////////////////////////////
Perfection.
Its striking how you attempt to be the one taking the " high road " in our little debate, yet you continue to take your jabs at me with comments like " If you need PSA to tell you...." when I already made it quite clear that I didnt need PSA to tell me anything, and that I was merely mentioning it for the sake of others who arent as experienced.
Even worse is your " similarly handicapped " comment. Please tell me how that isnt an attack of a personal nature ? Especially when the basis for why you even made the comment was wrong to begin with.
You simply just dont get it, thats the only conclusion I can come up with here. You have convinced yourself so completely well over the years that your word is always correct and wise that you dont have the first clue about half the things that come from your mouth.
In the future please try to comprehend what is being said to you before not only responding incorrectly, but trying to play the big man and bash someone all while portraying yourself as the more sensible, mature person who wants none of the " personal attacks. "
You contradict yourself and dont even realize it.
On that note I am done debating with you. Have a pleasant day.
-- Yogi Berra
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>I didnt ask for anything to happen to waverly. I never even claimed they did anything out of the norm other than maybe not screen what they were selling more carefully.
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come. >>
I think everyone agrees with that. Yet, there was an argument.
-- Yogi Berra
That's more reading than I did in High School!
<< <i>I didnt ask for anything to happen to waverly. I never even claimed they did anything out of the norm other than maybe not screen what they were selling more carefully.
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come. >>
Uh, right. In other words, the market will clear. If waverly is passing off pallets full of altered cards and selling them for a significant premium then either a) eventually all kinds of guys will start doing the same thing, or b) people will quit buying from him. In either case 'his time will come', because there will be no profit in continuing this practice. Which is basically what I said in my first post on this subject-- you know, the one that got you so excited to begin with.
But, let's get back for a minute to the point I was trying to make earlier. Now, as I recall you bought a '71 Munson from him that came back recolored. Do I have this right? If I don't then correct me. I thought I read that somewhere. In any case, let's say for the sake of argument that you did. Now, further assume that when you saw the scan of the card you thought it had a chance to grade a PSA 8. A PSA 8, as we know, is about a $530 dollar card. Now when you see the scan of waverly's Munson your thinking probably goes something like this: "That card looks sharp. I think it has a chance for a PSA 8. But I don't know for sure because I can't see the card in person. However, I think it has an 'x'% chance of grading an 8 based on the scan, so I'm going to bid 'x'% of $530 on it'.
This is an exceedingly reasonable approach to take. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's probably the optimal approach, especially if you figure in some other variables in your calculation (the chances it may come back a 9, the chances it's altered and essentially worthless, the chances it's not altered but also not PSA 8 quality, and so on). But the important thing to remember is that so long as you bid a % of the PSA 8 price for the card, where that % is 0<x%<100, then you should essentially be indifferent about the final result of your purchase SINCE YOU FIGURED IN THE CHANCES THAT THE CARD WASN'T PSA 8 QUALITY WHEN YOU SET YOUR BID PRICE. In one of your many toothless jabs at me you called me 'naive' because I had the audacity to propose that a seller with 7000 transactions and 4 negatives might actually be supplying a product that satisfies his buyers. But what's REALLY naive is to think you have some kind of birthright to pay a fraction of PSA 8 price and be guaranteed of getting a PSA 8 quality card in return. Maybe on 'Planet Brian' consumers are constantly given the opportunity to buy stuff at the world's largest online auction house at below market prices, but in 'Planet Boopotts' you generally get what you pay for; i.e., if the price you pay for a card that looks like a PSA 8 is 25% of the PSA 8 price, then the odds that the card will come back a PSA 8 are pretty damn close to 25%.
RichG was, at times, absolutely insufferable, but one thing he did understand what this: If you want to be guaranteed a PSA 8 quality card, then the ONLY course available to you is to buy a card already graded a PSA 8. If you buy a raw card then you are necessarily assuming some risk, so it's silly to complain later if that risk doesn't work out in your favor. And it's REALLY silly to complain later if you factored that risk into your buy price, for reasons that I'm assuming are self evident.
<< <i>
<< <i>I didnt ask for anything to happen to waverly. I never even claimed they did anything out of the norm other than maybe not screen what they were selling more carefully.
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come. >>
Uh, right. In other words, the market will clear. If waverly is passing off pallets full of altered cards and selling them for a significant premium then either a) eventually all kinds of guys will start doing the same thing, or b) people will quit buying from him. In either case 'his time will come', because there will be no profit in continuing this practice. Which is basically what I said in my first post on this subject-- you know, the one that got you so excited to begin with.
But, let's get back for a minute to the point I was trying to make earlier. Now, as I recall you bought a '71 Munson from him that came back recolored. Do I have this right?. >>
NO, you do not have this correct.
Which is exactly the point in which I ceased to read your long winded response.
It was at that point it became even more clear to me than before that you have ranted on and on yet never comprehended a single word you have read.
At no point to anyone who has above a 3rd grade education would have it been even slightly confusing.
I never stated or remotely implied that I had purchased a 71 Munson or any other card from Waverly. Further posts of mine clearly stated I had NEVER purchased a card from them.
Apparently your last and LONG reply had done nothing and everything at once. Nothing in value, yet everything in making my point that you can not comprehend what you read, or listen to anything other than your own spoken word.
I went against my word by replying here yet I just felt the need to based on the absolute hilarity.
Thanks for the laughs Boo and good luck to you !
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I didnt ask for anything to happen to waverly. I never even claimed they did anything out of the norm other than maybe not screen what they were selling more carefully.
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come. >>
Uh, right. In other words, the market will clear. If waverly is passing off pallets full of altered cards and selling them for a significant premium then either a) eventually all kinds of guys will start doing the same thing, or b) people will quit buying from him. In either case 'his time will come', because there will be no profit in continuing this practice. Which is basically what I said in my first post on this subject-- you know, the one that got you so excited to begin with.
But, let's get back for a minute to the point I was trying to make earlier. Now, as I recall you bought a '71 Munson from him that came back recolored. Do I have this right?. >>
NO, you do not have this correct.
Which is exactly the point in which I ceased to read your long winded response.
It was at that point it became even more clear to me than before that you have ranted on and on yet never comprehended a single word you have read.
At no point to anyone who has above a 3rd grade education would have it been even slightly confusing.
I never stated or remotely implied that I had purchased a 71 Munson or any other card from Waverly. Further posts of mine clearly stated I had NEVER purchased a card from them.
Apparently your last and LONG reply had done nothing and everything at once. Nothing in value, yet everything in making my point that you can not comprehend what you read, or listen to anything other than your own spoken word.
I went against my word by replying here yet I just felt the need to based on the absolute hilarity.
Thanks for the laughs Boo and good luck to you ! >>
Wonderful! I'm glad I could make your day a little brighter. And I'm sorry for the previous post's length. I tend to forget that for guy from Camp ADHD a 600 word post is just, like, waaayyy too much information, and that all those numbers and percentiles are, like, a total bummer to wade through. So future posts will, for your sake, be scaled down considerably.
See? I'm not only good looking and wealthy, I'm also exceptionally accommodating!
I agree with this.
If you want a PSA 8 card, buy a graded PSA 8 card. But to buy one, for half what a PSA 8 goes for, and then complain looks kinda foolish to me. No one thinks that if a card came back a PSA 8, that you paid half PSA 8 SMR that you should send the seller money to not rip him off. But rather, I did good "taking a chance." Taking a chance works both ways.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>"RichG was, at times, absolutely insufferable, but one thing he did understand what this: If you want to be guaranteed a PSA 8 quality card, then the ONLY course available to you is to buy a card already graded a PSA 8."
I agree with this.
If you want a PSA 8 card, buy a graded PSA 8 card. But to buy one, for half what a PSA 8 goes for, and then complain looks kinda foolish to me. No one thinks that if a card came back a PSA 8, that you paid half PSA 8 SMR that you should send the seller money to not rip him off. But rather, I did good "taking a chance." Taking a chance works both ways.
Mark >>
But if you take that approach you can't play the victim card. And if you can't play the victim card then what fun is buying on Ebay?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I didnt ask for anything to happen to waverly. I never even claimed they did anything out of the norm other than maybe not screen what they were selling more carefully.
What goes around comes around, and if they do practice unsavory methods of doing business than hopefully their time will come. >>
Uh, right. In other words, the market will clear. If waverly is passing off pallets full of altered cards and selling them for a significant premium then either a) eventually all kinds of guys will start doing the same thing, or b) people will quit buying from him. In either case 'his time will come', because there will be no profit in continuing this practice. Which is basically what I said in my first post on this subject-- you know, the one that got you so excited to begin with.
But, let's get back for a minute to the point I was trying to make earlier. Now, as I recall you bought a '71 Munson from him that came back recolored. Do I have this right?. >>
NO, you do not have this correct.
Which is exactly the point in which I ceased to read your long winded response.
It was at that point it became even more clear to me than before that you have ranted on and on yet never comprehended a single word you have read.
At no point to anyone who has above a 3rd grade education would have it been even slightly confusing.
I never stated or remotely implied that I had purchased a 71 Munson or any other card from Waverly. Further posts of mine clearly stated I had NEVER purchased a card from them.
Apparently your last and LONG reply had done nothing and everything at once. Nothing in value, yet everything in making my point that you can not comprehend what you read, or listen to anything other than your own spoken word.
I went against my word by replying here yet I just felt the need to based on the absolute hilarity.
Thanks for the laughs Boo and good luck to you ! >>
Wonderful! I'm glad I could make your day a little brighter. And I'll try to remember when composing future responses that for guys like yourself a 600 word post is just, like, waaayyy too much information, dude. >>
Yep.
When you couldnt grasp the basic premise of my posts by understanding that I had NEVER purchased a card from waverly, the rest was waaayyy too much for me to bother reading.
I had assumed that by prefacing several messages with something to the affect of " I NEVER purchased a card from waverly " may have been enough for all concerned parties. Apparently my assumption was wrong and I grossly underestimated your inability to grasp the obvious.
When you have an interest in actually reading and understanding what others think and write let me know Boo. Until then you have proven yourself, to me at least, as a long winded know it all who cant or doesnt bother to listen to anyone but themselves.
-- Yogi Berra
What strikes me even harder, and I am not going to name anyone's name here because Im not looking to get into a war of words....is that some of you sound like you are saying that if you can get away with selling a high percentage of altered cards then more power to you!?? This kind of thinking will KILL our hobby! Look at the reaction to the whole Memory Lane controversy.
Too bad for the unsuspecting or uneducated or less knowledgable collector? It's one thing paying a crazy amount of money for a high grade raw card, but its another when you pay out the wazoo for a high grade ALTERED raw card.
I am NOT saying that Waverly is the one altering the cards....but one or more of their sources may be and it's Waverly's reputation on the line.