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Biggio to pass Aaron!
Writer11
Posts: 738 ✭
in Sports Talk
Stown just brought to my attention that Craig Biggio now has 620 career doubles. He is four short of Hank Aaron for 9th on the all-time list.
Where's the love for doubles hitters?
I'm starting my own countdown.
Where's the love for doubles hitters?
I'm starting my own countdown.
0
Comments
Steve
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Biggio grew up about 10 minutes from me, and although he may be underrated as a player all these years, he certainly doesnt get any love in his hometown. I am not saying that it is a players obligation to give back to his community, but it sure doesnt hurt. Over the years he has failed to acknowledge any attempt to give back as far as appearances, donations, etc. I dont think it would have hurt him to show up at a benefit once in a while, or maybe support the local little league or something. Nobody is saying he has to give his life and wallet over, but a token of appreciation to the town that raised him, the coaches that taught him the game, etc. would have been nice to see. >>
He does a ton of charity work here in Houston. Notice that little yellow pin he wears? That's for the sunshine kids.
Link
To try and drag his name through the mud won't hold any water.
While he may have not been born here, Houston is his adopted hometown.
<< <i>
<< <i>Biggio grew up about 10 minutes from me, and although he may be underrated as a player all these years, he certainly doesnt get any love in his hometown. I am not saying that it is a players obligation to give back to his community, but it sure doesnt hurt. Over the years he has failed to acknowledge any attempt to give back as far as appearances, donations, etc. I dont think it would have hurt him to show up at a benefit once in a while, or maybe support the local little league or something. Nobody is saying he has to give his life and wallet over, but a token of appreciation to the town that raised him, the coaches that taught him the game, etc. would have been nice to see. >>
He does a ton of charity work here in Houston. Notice that little yellow pin he wears? That's for the sunshine kids.
Link
To try and drag his name through the mud won't hold any water.
While he may have not been born here, Houston is his adopted hometown. >>
I wasnt dragging his name through the mud. I was pointing out the fact that he has done nothing for his hometown here. I also didnt say it was anyones obligation to do so, only that it would have been nice to see. Dont try to twist my words or thoughts. I think the guy is a great ballplayer, and may do plenty of work off the field, he just doesnt do it here where he was raised.
-- Yogi Berra
But James goes to great length in his book to spell out why Biggio was better than Ken Griffey, Jr., the player often thought of as the best of the 90's if not Bonds. From 1992 through 1999, Biggio was a better player than Griffey every year except 1993, when Griffey was slightly better. That includes 1997 (MVP for Griffey) and 1998, the two years Griffey hit 56 homers while Biggio hit a combined 42.
The last paragraph of his chapter on Biggio captures most of the reason Biggio is the most underrated player in major league history, and will probably always be:
<< <i>If you compare him [his 1997 season] to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has a hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by a pitch 33 more times (34 to 1) and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average. >>
Biggio hit .309 in 1997; to make a fair comparison to Rice in 1984 - if you are only going to look at the "big" stats like HR, BA, RBI, etc. - you need to pretend Biggio hit .409 that year with about 260 hits. Looked at another way, George Sisler really did hit over .400 a couple of times but his best season would only be Biggio's third best, and it is the only season he had that would crack Biggio's top 5.
Biggio will pass Aaron in doubles, but he was not as good as Aaron. But he is better than Kaline, Clemente, Banks, Snider, Brooks Robinson and a whole host of no-brainer Hall of Famers. As James says in his book, "The fact that nobody seems to realize this... well, that's not my problem."
<< <i>Bill James wrote in 2000, and I quote, "Craig Biggio is the best player in major league baseball today." I think he probably exaggerated a little bit; even without the steroids, Bonds was better. A little better.
But James goes to great length in his book to spell out why Biggio was better than Ken Griffey, Jr., the player often thought of as the best of the 90's if not Bonds. From 1992 through 1999, Biggio was a better player than Griffey every year except 1993, when Griffey was slightly better. That includes 1997 (MVP for Griffey) and 1998, the two years Griffey hit 56 homers while Biggio hit a combined 42.
The last paragraph of his chapter on Biggio captures most of the reason Biggio is the most underrated player in major league history, and will probably always be:
<< <i>If you compare him [his 1997 season] to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has a hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by a pitch 33 more times (34 to 1) and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average. >>
Biggio hit .309 in 1997; to make a fair comparison to Rice in 1984 - if you are only going to look at the "big" stats like HR, BA, RBI, etc. - you need to pretend Biggio hit .409 that year with about 260 hits. Looked at another way, George Sisler really did hit over .400 a couple of times but his best season would only be Biggio's third best, and it is the only season he had that would crack Biggio's top 5.
Biggio will pass Aaron in doubles, but he was not as good as Aaron. But he is better than Kaline, Clemente, Banks, Snider, Brooks Robinson and a whole host of no-brainer Hall of Famers. As James says in his book, "The fact that nobody seems to realize this... well, that's not my problem." >>
I would think you would have to weight those hidden average numbers to account for a) the number of times either player would have reached base even without being hit by a pitch, and b) for the number of times each player put a ball in play that could have been turned into a double play. If, for example, Biggio hit 150 ground balls to infielders, and Rice hit 90, then there's going to be a disparity.
Are these factors weighted already in this assessment?
Not as many all star appearances, not as many golden gloves, and Griffey absolutely crushes him in James' favorite stat, OPS.
Biggio should absolutely be a HoFer, but I predict he won't be a first balloter.
Also, Biggio may be a solid player but come on. I'd take Barry Bonds over Biggio even back early days. Bonds has ALWAYS been a better ballplayer than Biggio, with or without juice. Same with Griffey, not even a comparison. Biggio is getting too easily grouped with legendary talents just because he can beat out the left fielders throw to second base.
That is exactly why many do not suscribe to James and his theories.
Biggio was never the best player in baseball. He was though 'one of the best' He could play a few pos. and play them all well. To say he was the best, well..................
Steve
<< <i>Not as many all star appearances, not as many golden gloves, and Griffey absolutely crushes him in James' favorite stat, OPS. >>
But this is exactly James' point. Yes, the people who vote for all-stars and on Golden Gloves, etc. do not realize that Biggio was a better player than Griffey. As for OPS+, again this was James' point. That Biggio grounded into no double plays - read that again, NO double plays - in 1997 does not show up in OPS+. In the paragraph I quoted, James refers only to GIDP and HBP, but he has several others that he groups together as "little stats" - most of which do not show up in OPS+ - and Biggio is among the best at all of them. Overall, he is the best "little stat" player in MLB history.
I have said it before, but it bears repeating: I disagree with Bill James on a lot of the smaller things and on a handful of really big things. But, I do not disagree with him about Biggio vs. Griffey. Biggio is a better player than Griffey. The main reasons that nobody realizes this, IMO, are that Biggio hits leadoff in a league where the pitcher bats and has about half the opportunity for RBI that Griffey has, and Biggio played all of his best seasons in the Astrodome where, even ignoring "little stats", one has to add about 20 to 25 points to his batting average to get close to a fair comparison with Griffey.
Bottom line, if you figure out how many runs Biggio produced for the Astros in the context of how many runs it takes for the Astros to win a game and comapre that to the number of runs Griffey produced in the same context for his teams, it is not difficult to see that Biggio was responsible for winning more games than Griffey.
<< <i>The other problem with that Biggio theory is that the writer is added the 100 points higher partly based on Biggio beating out the double play to first base. The problem with that is he is assuming that if the ball was only getting thrown to first base (instead of going to second base first in a double play), that Biggio would always beat out that throw. Honestly, he would probably be out on almost all those plays if the ball wasn't going to second base first. >>
Yes, that's true, but at the end of Biggio's play there would be a man on base and one out whichever one they threw out; at the end of Rice's play there would be nobody on and two out. The comparison to Rice is dramatic because Rice is one of the most overrated players in history. His double plays were equivalent, roughy, to cancelling out about 50 points of his batting average; think of all the singles that Red Sox hitters got credit for only to have them wiped out by Rice. If you are ignoring GIDP when you compare players, and nearly everyone does, then you will get the wrong answer very often. Just because they are not shown on the back of a baseball card does not mean they are unimportant.
Dallas
I'll buy that, BUT that does not make him better then Griffey (since you used that as the example) It only means what it says. The only way it would make him better then Griffey IMO is if both played on the same team at the same time.
Steve
<< <i>While Biggio is an extremely talented (and underrated) player, to sit there and have James say he was better in the 90s than Griffey seems quite suspect.
Not as many all star appearances, not as many golden gloves, and Griffey absolutely crushes him in James' favorite stat, OPS.
Biggio should absolutely be a HoFer, but I predict he won't be a first balloter. >>
If Biggio gets to 3,000 hits, I say he is a definite first ballot guy. But you could be right. He doesn't get a lot of ink.
<< <i>To discount Rice's RBI's as being a by-product of his lineup and ballpark but than penalize him extra for his DP's is not right. If Rice hit lead-off for the Astros in 1997 and Biggio hit 3rd or 4th for the Red Sox in 1984 I would bet Biggio would hit into more DP's. >>
Agreed. There is interplay between the two and the combination is less than the sum. But, if you switched their roles (putting Biggio in the most right-handed hitting friendly park ever and moving Rice to the Dome, what you would see is Biggio with numbers (HR, RBI, BA, etc.) comparable to or better than Kaline, Yaz, etc., and chasing Tris Speaker for #1 in doubles, not Hank Aaron for #9. You'd also see Rice with no 100 RBI seasons, maybe 300 home runs and a lifetime BA in the .250 range. Rice is no Hall of Famer, not even close, and the only reason that Biggio is not universally recognized as such is where he played.
<< <i>I'll buy that, BUT that does not make him better then Griffey (since you used that as the example) It only means what it says. The only way it would make him better then Griffey IMO is if both played on the same team at the same time. >>
Of course, we'll never know and even if they had played together one of them would have gotten the better RBI spot in the order so there would still be some speculation involved. Griffey hits HR better than Biggio, Biggio does just about everything else better than Griffey (if you adjust for the parks they played in). HR are a big part of offensive production, but I do not believe that they are important enough to close the gap completely on Biggio. But if Biggio could have played his prime years outdoors with Griffey batting behind him, I am positive that there would be no debate that Biggio belonged in the HOF and that Griffey would have a lot more RBI than he has now.
The park that Rice hit the best in was not Fenway Park but Yankee Stadium. At the Stadium, and I believe these stats are mostly before they moved the left field fences in Rice has a .336 AVE, .386 OBP and .661 SLG in 280 career at bats. Rice hit better against left-hand pitching (perhaps a reason why he had success in New York) and would have faced less lefties in Fenway, especially before they added the 600 club. I recall a study done in the 1980's that tracked Rice's flyballs and he lost quite a few homers to right and right-center in Fenway over his career. Perhaps another reason why he hit for a lot of power in Yankee Stadium where a chip shot to rightfield is often a homerun.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Biggio grew up about 10 minutes from me, and although he may be underrated as a player all these years, he certainly doesnt get any love in his hometown. I am not saying that it is a players obligation to give back to his community, but it sure doesnt hurt. Over the years he has failed to acknowledge any attempt to give back as far as appearances, donations, etc. I dont think it would have hurt him to show up at a benefit once in a while, or maybe support the local little league or something. Nobody is saying he has to give his life and wallet over, but a token of appreciation to the town that raised him, the coaches that taught him the game, etc. would have been nice to see. >>
He does a ton of charity work here in Houston. Notice that little yellow pin he wears? That's for the sunshine kids.
Link
To try and drag his name through the mud won't hold any water.
While he may have not been born here, Houston is his adopted hometown. >>
I wasnt dragging his name through the mud. I was pointing out the fact that he has done nothing for his hometown here. I also didnt say it was anyones obligation to do so, only that it would have been nice to see. Dont try to twist my words or thoughts. I think the guy is a great ballplayer, and may do plenty of work off the field, he just doesnt do it here where he was raised. >>
I wasn't twisting your words or thoughts. It's all right there... You said he does nothing for the city in which he was raised and that it wouldn't hurt if he did. You were putting a negative spin on a person that I consider a truely remarkable charity giver. The amount of money he has raised and charity benefits he has attended in Houston FAR outweighs anything he could have done in Smithtown, NY, which has a population of just over 100,000 with a median household income of $80K (source).
By calling him out, I sure hope you donate a lot of time, money, and energy to good causes there.
<< <i>I agree had Rice played his career in the Dome he would not be a Hall of Fame candidate ... >>
That, in a nutshell, is what frustrates me about the HOF. It should not matter what park one plays in, how good a team one played on, etc. But it does, and it does to such a degree that there are actually debates about whether Craig Biggio belongs in the HOF. I've had my say about his comparison to Griffey which is just for fun anyway - they are both top-tier HOFers - but, seriously, anyone who does not recognize that Biggio is not just a Hall of Famer, but better than at least half of the players in the HOF should not be voting. And I can not stand that there are points given for being on a winning team; Ernie Banks was good enough to overcome that bias, but Ron Santo was not. And Ron Santo was also a better player than at least half of the HOF.
I truly hope that Biggio can stay healthy long enough to get to 3,000 hits which will be early next year if he plays every day. That will get him in the HOF quickly, if not necessaily on the first ballot.
{I'll stop picking on Rice for now, too. I recognize that he was very likely better than I think he was, but I still believe his true value is closer to where I rank him than to where common opinion ranks him.}