Next year there will be several first timers going in, but '08 and '09 have weak classes. Goose and Rice have a good chance then. I'm very surprised that McGee, Gooden and Will Clark didn't even get the 5% and are off the ballot for good, then again, guys like Bill Madlock and Lou Whitaker never got the love either and were one and out.
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Rich Gossage 336 64.6% Andre Dawson 317 61.0% Bert Blyleven 277 53.3% Lee Smith 234 45.0% Jack Morris 214 41.2% Tommy John 154 29.6% Steve Garvey 135 26.0% Alan Trammell 92 17.7% Dave Parker 75 14.4% Dave Concepcion 65 12.5% Don Mattingly 64 12.3% Orel Hershiser 58 11.2% Dale Murphy 56 10.8% Albert Belle 40 7.7% ---------------------------------------- Will Clark 23 4.4% Dwight Gooden 17 3.3% Willie McGee 12 2.3% Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0% Hal Morris 5 1.0% Gary Gaetti 4 0.8% John Wetteland 4 0.8% Rick Aguilera 3 0.6% Gregg Jefferies 2 0.4% Doug Jones 2 0.4% Walt Weiss 1 0.2% Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0% Alex Fernandez 0 0.0%
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Next year is Gwynn, Ripken and McGwire. I"m betting McGwire won't make it but will in '08. Rickey Henderson is the standout in '09, so I don't think Rice, Gossage, or anyone else will get in before '10, if then. They might be running out of eligibility by then. Damn, we're talking about 2010 already!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I agree, if Sutter made it so should Gossage. Gossage was the most feared closer of his era if not ever. Goose will likely have to wait for the veteran's committee....
Rich Gossage 336 64.6% Andre Dawson 317 61.0% Bert Blyleven 277 53.3% Lee Smith 234 45.0% Jack Morris 214 41.2% Tommy John 154 29.6% Steve Garvey 135 26.0% Alan Trammell 92 17.7% Dave Parker 75 14.4% Dave Concepcion 65 12.5% Don Mattingly 64 12.3% Orel Hershiser 58 11.2% Dale Murphy 56 10.8% Albert Belle 40 7.7% ---------------------------------------- Will Clark 23 4.4% Dwight Gooden 17 3.3% Willie McGee 12 2.3% Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0% Hal Morris 5 1.0% Gary Gaetti 4 0.8% John Wetteland 4 0.8% Rick Aguilera 3 0.6% Gregg Jefferies 2 0.4% Doug Jones 2 0.4% Walt Weiss 1 0.2% Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0% Alex Fernandez 0 0.0% >>
Hi...
What is the minimum percentage required to get voted in?
I expected either 1 pitcher or 1 hitter, or no one to go in this year. I figured Gossage or Sutter and Rice to go in, or else Sutter and Gossage to split and Rice/Dawson to split. Looks like I was close. If either one of them wasn't on the ballot, the other would be a shoo-in. I knew none of the Morris/John/Blyleven group would get in, though.
I can't believe Will Clark got so little support. I mean, only 23 votes? I wouldn't have voted for him, either, but if Dave Parker gets 76 votes, I'd've expected Will Clark to at least stay on the ballot for more than one year.
WANTED: 2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25 2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9 Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
<< <i>The 5 people that voted for Hal Morris and 2 for Greg Jeffries should have thier voting privileges revoked.... >>
Hey, Jefferies did have those 13 games in 1988 that set baseball on fire.
I remember NY newspapers talking him up as the possible rookie of the year. Then again, I also remember the Jefferies rookie being as good as gold if you found it in a pack.
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Someone mentioned surprise that Will Clark didn't get on 5% of the ballots. Not I as I never found him to be great. I think he was thought of a very highly in NorCal but not sure about the rest of the country. I find Parker to be more under appreciated... at least based on numbers, 2,712 hits, 339 hrs, 1493 rbis, .290 avg. Whereas Will Clark only had 2,176, 284, 1205 and .303 avg. Will may have played better D though!? Not sure about MVP votings but I imagine DP would have been on more ballots through the years than Will!? Just thinking out loud....
Joey Belle stays on the ballot and Doc Gooden goes off? He had more wins than Koufax, and his 1985 season alone (the most dominating I've ever seen, but I'm only 31) should have at least kept him on the ballot for a few more years... look at 84-90...
I assume he belong in the "Hall of Shame" for cocaine use? No matter, he still belong on the ballot... Unless you also want to kick these guys off the ballot -
Dave Parker (cocaine) Steve Garvey (adultery) Joey Belle (corked bat/steroids/assault with a vehicle on children)
Was Garvey adultry or just having two kids with two women (neither his wife) at about the same time? By today's athletes standards that's common practice I believe!?
We can just compromise and call Garvey an womanizer - and I guess it may be common practice today(and yesterday) but that doesn't make it right.... BUT that's not for me to judge, just like I don't think the voters should play God/ the behavior police and judge Gooden by his off the field choices. I think he did more than enough on the field (and for the game, with the excitement he brought to NY in 85) to at least be recognized by being on the HOF ballot for a few more years. Again, Joey Freaking Belle remains on the list...
Now that Sutter is in I dont see how you cannot have Goose. Aside from the split finger innovation, Gossage has him beat up and down the board. I think Gossage's self promotion the past year or so may have rubbed some writers the wrong way.
--
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Was Garvey adultry or just having two kids with two women (neither his wife) at about the same time? By today's athletes standards that's common practice I believe!? >>
So really you could make a case that Garvey 'revolutionized' the modern athlete the same way Gossage and Sutter did with the closer role. Yes he was indeed a man ahead of his time.
So really you could make a case that Garvey 'revolutionized' the modern athlete the same way Gossage and Sutter did with the closer role. Yes he was indeed a man ahead of his time.
Nope, Wilt Chamberlain did that 20 years before.
Steve
Edited to add:
It would have been nice had Goose made it. Could have been the yr. relief pitching really got noticed and he (american lg) and Sutter (national lg) went in together.
I do not see Sutter as a HOF player, never have, never will. Closers do not belong in the HOF unless they were totally dominant for 10-15 years (Rivera immediately comes to mind). Sutter's career was only 12 years, and of that, only 7 of them were solid, and really only 3 were spectacular. 3 spectacular or even 7 above average seasons does not constitute a HOF worthy pitcher by any stretch. I don't know what the voters were thinking, but it is pathetic when such marginal players are being enshrined.
I really wish my man Dave Concepcion could have made it in. He was probably the best defensive shortstop to come along before Ozzie and better with the bat.
Concepcion's career batting statistics (.267 average, 101 home runs, 950 RBIs in 19 seasons) stack up quite well against Smith's (.262, 28 homers, 793 RBIs in 19 seasons), and his career fielding percentage of .972 is also right up there with Smith's .978 mark.
Is the Hawk finished? Or does Dawson get another chance to make the ballot for the HOF?
21 seasons, should be in the Hall, dont you think?
Was Rookie of the year! 1591 rbi's 438 hr's .482 slugging % over 21 seasons (.507 slugging % as a cubbie, ...4th highest in team history!) hit 49 hr's for the last place Cubs (was MVP that year!) .279 lifetime batting avg. 29th on the all-time Home Run list 28th on the all-time RBI list 318 stolen bases 8 time all star 8 time gold glove winner (outfield!)
There is NO WAY Jack Morris should ever make the Hall of Fame. Wins are the most overrated statistic a pitcher can have if not coupled with an equally impressive ERA. The only thing that wins portray when they are not coupled with an equally impressive ERA is that the guy pitched on a team with a good offense or the team scored lots of runs for him more often than not. A 3.90 ERA is no more than a mediocre ERA at best especially when the league average during that tenor is 4.08. Sure, Jack had a couple good games in the World Series but if that was all it took, then Don Larsen and his Perfect Game would earn him a ticket to Cooperstown. Jack was a solid pitcher but NOT a player deserving of the Hall of Fame. Now, if you want to elect a starting pitcher deserving of the Hall, then elect Bert Blyleven who possessed the most dominating curve ball of his time, ranks fifth in career strikeouts, ninth in career shutouts, had an ERA of 3.31 versus the league average of 3.90 over that time period, pitched on two World Championship teams and owned a 5-1 playoff record with a fine 2.47 ERA.
Nuff Said!! Bert should be in Cooperstown and Jack should keep his surly self and mediocre stats at home!!!
<< <i>I really wish my man Dave Concepcion could have made it in. He was probably the best defensive shortstop to come along before Ozzie and better with the bat.
Concepcion's career batting statistics (.267 average, 101 home runs, 950 RBIs in 19 seasons) stack up quite well against Smith's (.262, 28 homers, 793 RBIs in 19 seasons), and his career fielding percentage of .972 is also right up there with Smith's .978 mark. >>
I laways liked Concepcion and when he first made the ballot I thought the writers would show him some favor in the 40-50% range. Boy was I wrong. I think the fact that he had Rose/Morgan/Bench/Griffey on those teams kept him relatively unknown on a broad scale
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Did the prices for Sutter cards get a high demand today or shoot up in value?
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>If Sutter made it, Goose should have made it. >>
And if Gates Brown ever gets in the HOF, then Manny Mota should, too.
I'd prefer we just stop pretending that "relief pitcher" is a position separate from "pitcher" and admit that no pitcher with barely 1,000 innings and a w/l under.500 is even remotely close to HOF-level.
Yes, the guy who voted for Walt Weiss should have his voting priveleges revoked for making a mockery of the process; but so should everyone who voted for Sutter, for the far more serious offense of making a mockery of the HOF itself. There are now maybe 100 pitchers with claims to being HOF-worthy based on being better than Sutter (including every single pitcher mentioned so far in this thread). At least the shame of the Marquard family has been lifted; Rube will never again be the least deserving pitcher in the HOF.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I can't believe the increase in bidding on Sutter cards in the last day or so. It's un-frickin' believable.
There were 50 Sutter items listed prior to yesterday and now there are 140.
In another one of my bonehead moves, I sold two PSA 8 Sutter rookies on eBay on Boxing Day for $25 (for both of them). I see one of the Sutters that I sold is now listed on eBay. The bidding for it is already up to $26. Another scholarly move by me
The Hall of Fame has become irrelevant for me. The writers who vote on it have probably never seen half the guys play. I mean if you are a National league writer until 1997 when Interleague play started you never saw an American League game. It is further a shame not to have Pete in the hall, reguardless of what was done off the field he should be inducted for his on the field play. It is just ridiculous to have a Hall of Fame for Baseball without the person who had more hits than any other player ever. Shoeless Joe should be included also, I mean gee was it ever proven that he had anything to do with the World Series scandal? His stats during that World Series sure seem to prove otherwise. The Hall of Fame and the Heisman Tropy are both way overrated.
<< <i>Yes, the guy who voted for Walt Weiss should have his voting priveleges revoked for making a mockery of the process; but so should everyone who voted for Sutter, for the far more serious offense of making a mockery of the HOF itself >>
Dal, You are one nutty cat. You are so absolute and over the top with everything. I thought I was black/white...you must be coal/snow. Bruce Sutter absolutely changes the game of baseball. Absolutely changed it. Prior to his new "trick pitch", hitting was taught completely different. He made the short, compact, linear swing happen. How many pitchers actually alter the way the entire game is taught and played? Along with Hoffman, Rivera, Gossage, and to a lesser degree Dibble, Gagne, & Percival, Sutter meant game over. He used to go 2-3 innings routinely 2-3 times per week to put games away for the pitching-poor Cubs. I had an opportunity to listen to Dennis Lamp and Mike Krukow discuss Sutter's presence on that Cubs team and I'm sold. He pitched hurt so often it's actually scary. When he was in St. Louis he was also dominant. Bruce Sutter was/is a marvel of modern pitching and his election is overdue in my opinion.
As for Dawson, his .279 career average must be the killer. Had he hit .282 he would look more attractive. I think he's a guy the HOF would be proud to have on board. A true gentleman who has done things few have accomplished. The power/speed combination is matched only by Bonds and his 1600 RBI and 420 bombs along with his legendary throwing arm and gold-glove collection should seal the deal. Factor in the career being over, collusion, his blank contract, the Cubs insulting him with 500,000 and he wins the MVP on a last-place team with the best clutch season I ever saw followed by .300 seasons and .500+ slugging averages and a post-season appearance in '89 and I think the only thing missing would be a farewell tour. I guess the stop in his hometown of Miami wasn't the best idea and he wasn't exactly the return of the Bambino in Boston, but if Dawson isn't a HOF'er the title is lost on me. It's become a neat place to visit and look at the displays, but as for credentials making the entrance relevant...I'm not sure anyone will agree on what those are. I just enjoy the best players. Walt Weiss was a heck of a player. I would have voted for him with #25 just to give him some appreciation. His ability to draw a key walk, make a productive out, get a key hit, and lead his infield everywhere he played deserve some recognition. His game wasn't sexy, but he was a winning player. I think that voter is probably a more baseball savvy guy than most when push comes to shove.
Once the steriod era players start becoming eligible next year, players like Dawson and Rice will be lost. The baseball writers could have made a statement by voting in the last of the natural power hitters, however they demonstrated what a bunch of stat geeks they are.
It still amazes me that stats seem to be the only serious consideration for the HOF. Being a winner doesn't seem to matter unless you are a Yankee. I have become more of a football fan over the years, partly because great teams seem to get more attention that just individual stars.
Troy Aikman will probably get voted into the football HOF this year with Reggie White. Troy doesn't rank in the top 10 in any significant passing stat nor did he lead the league in any passing stats. However winning 3 Super Bowls and being part of a great team count for something. He doesn't get penalized becaused he had a great O-line, RB, and WR.
That is why I still push for Jack Morris. Everyone says how great the mid-80's Tigers were, however none of them have ever been serious HOF contenders. Jack was a key pitcher on 3 WS teams, but somehow the fat baseball writers can't get over his attitude.
ndleo
Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9%
Jim Rice 337 64.8%
Rich Gossage 336 64.6%
Andre Dawson 317 61.0%
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3%
Lee Smith 234 45.0%
Jack Morris 214 41.2%
Tommy John 154 29.6%
Steve Garvey 135 26.0%
Alan Trammell 92 17.7%
Dave Parker 75 14.4%
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5%
Don Mattingly 64 12.3%
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2%
Dale Murphy 56 10.8%
Albert Belle 40 7.7%
----------------------------------------
Will Clark 23 4.4%
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3%
Willie McGee 12 2.3%
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0%
Hal Morris 5 1.0%
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8%
John Wetteland 4 0.8%
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6%
Gregg Jefferies 2 0.4%
Doug Jones 2 0.4%
Walt Weiss 1 0.2%
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0%
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0%
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Good Choice.
I would have liked to have seen Rice get in as he was the most feared power hitter of his era.
last guy to get 400 total bases too i believe.
Steve
Julen
RIP GURU
Damn, we're talking about 2010 already!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>In case no one saw them, the vote totals
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9%
Jim Rice 337 64.8%
Rich Gossage 336 64.6%
Andre Dawson 317 61.0%
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3%
Lee Smith 234 45.0%
Jack Morris 214 41.2%
Tommy John 154 29.6%
Steve Garvey 135 26.0%
Alan Trammell 92 17.7%
Dave Parker 75 14.4%
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5%
Don Mattingly 64 12.3%
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2%
Dale Murphy 56 10.8%
Albert Belle 40 7.7%
----------------------------------------
Will Clark 23 4.4%
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3%
Willie McGee 12 2.3%
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0%
Hal Morris 5 1.0%
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8%
John Wetteland 4 0.8%
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6%
Gregg Jefferies 2 0.4%
Doug Jones 2 0.4%
Walt Weiss 1 0.2%
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0%
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0% >>
Hi...
What is the minimum percentage required to get voted in?
Donato
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I expected either 1 pitcher or 1 hitter, or no one to go in this year. I figured Gossage or Sutter and Rice to go in, or else Sutter and Gossage to split and Rice/Dawson to split. Looks like I was close. If either one of them wasn't on the ballot, the other would be a shoo-in. I knew none of the Morris/John/Blyleven group would get in, though.
I can't believe Will Clark got so little support. I mean, only 23 votes? I wouldn't have voted for him, either, but if Dave Parker gets 76 votes, I'd've expected Will Clark to at least stay on the ballot for more than one year.
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2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
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Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
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<< <i>The 5 people that voted for Hal Morris and 2 for Greg Jeffries should have thier voting privileges revoked.... >>
Hey, Jefferies did have those 13 games in 1988 that set baseball on fire.
I remember NY newspapers talking him up as the possible rookie of the year. Then again, I also remember the Jefferies rookie being as good as gold if you found it in a pack.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
1984 19 NYM NL 17 9 31 31 7 3 0 0 218.0 161 72 63 7 73 276 2 3 879 2 7 2.60 3.56 137 1.073
1985 20 NYM NL 24 4 35 35 16 8 0 0 276.7 198 51 47 13 69 268 2 6 1065 4 2 1.53 3.45 226 0.965
1986 21 NYM NL 17 6 33 33 12 2 0 0 250.0 197 92 79 17 80 200 4 4 1020 3 4 2.84 3.54 124 1.108
1987 22 NYM NL 15 7 25 25 7 3 0 0 179.7 162 68 64 11 53 148 2 1 730 2 1 3.21 3.80 119 1.197
1988 23 NYM NL 18 9 34 34 10 3 0 0 248.3 242 98 88 8 57 175 6 5 1024 4 5 3.19 3.21 101 1.204
1989 24 NYM NL 9 4 19 17 0 0 1 1 118.3 93 42 38 9 47 101 2 7 497 2 5 2.89 3.26 113 1.183
1990 25 NYM NL 19 7 34 34 2 1 0 0 232.7 229 106 99 10 70 223 7 6 983 3 3 3.83 3.76 98 1.285
Steve
Dave Parker (cocaine)
Steve Garvey (adultery)
Joey Belle (corked bat/steroids/assault with a vehicle on children)
however that is not why I said he belongs in the hall of shame
he should still be playing for god sakes or just recently retired!
Like Straw his is a career of what coulda been.
Steve
Doc by Veterans Commitee in 2025!!
poll
2 wrongs never equaled a right.
Steve
--
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Was Garvey adultry or just having two kids with two women (neither his wife) at about the same time? By today's athletes standards that's common practice I believe!? >>
So really you could make a case that Garvey 'revolutionized' the modern athlete the same way Gossage and Sutter did with the closer role. Yes he was indeed a man ahead of his time.
Nope, Wilt Chamberlain did that 20 years before.
Steve
Edited to add:
It would have been nice had Goose made it. Could have been the yr. relief pitching really got noticed and he (american lg) and Sutter (national lg) went in together.
Concepcion's career batting statistics (.267 average, 101 home runs, 950 RBIs in 19 seasons) stack up quite well against Smith's (.262, 28 homers, 793 RBIs in 19 seasons), and his career fielding percentage of .972 is also right up there with Smith's .978 mark.
21 seasons, should be in the Hall, dont you think?
Was Rookie of the year!
1591 rbi's
438 hr's
.482 slugging % over 21 seasons (.507 slugging % as a cubbie, ...4th highest in team history!)
hit 49 hr's for the last place Cubs (was MVP that year!)
.279 lifetime batting avg.
29th on the all-time Home Run list
28th on the all-time RBI list
318 stolen bases
8 time all star
8 time gold glove winner (outfield!)
edit: oh yea! 2774 hits !
rbd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Nuff Said!! Bert should be in Cooperstown and Jack should keep his surly self and mediocre stats at home!!!
I have only seen a couple, and in both he looks like the Mountain Man who came out of the cave.
Include scans if possible.
<< <i>I really wish my man Dave Concepcion could have made it in. He was probably the best defensive shortstop to come along before Ozzie and better with the bat.
Concepcion's career batting statistics (.267 average, 101 home runs, 950 RBIs in 19 seasons) stack up quite well against Smith's (.262, 28 homers, 793 RBIs in 19 seasons), and his career fielding percentage of .972 is also right up there with Smith's .978 mark. >>
I laways liked Concepcion and when he first made the ballot I thought the writers would show him some favor in the 40-50% range. Boy was I wrong. I think the fact that he had Rose/Morgan/Bench/Griffey on those teams kept him relatively unknown on a broad scale
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
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<< <i>If Sutter made it, Goose should have made it. >>
And if Gates Brown ever gets in the HOF, then Manny Mota should, too.
I'd prefer we just stop pretending that "relief pitcher" is a position separate from "pitcher" and admit that no pitcher with barely 1,000 innings and a w/l under.500 is even remotely close to HOF-level.
Yes, the guy who voted for Walt Weiss should have his voting priveleges revoked for making a mockery of the process; but so should everyone who voted for Sutter, for the far more serious offense of making a mockery of the HOF itself. There are now maybe 100 pitchers with claims to being HOF-worthy based on being better than Sutter (including every single pitcher mentioned so far in this thread). At least the shame of the Marquard family has been lifted; Rube will never again be the least deserving pitcher in the HOF.
There were 50 Sutter items listed prior to yesterday and now there are 140.
In another one of my bonehead moves, I sold two PSA 8 Sutter rookies on eBay on Boxing Day for $25 (for both of them). I see one of the Sutters that I sold is now listed on eBay. The bidding for it is already up to $26. Another scholarly move by me
<< <i>Yes, the guy who voted for Walt Weiss should have his voting priveleges revoked for making a mockery of the process; but so should everyone who voted for Sutter, for the far more serious offense of making a mockery of the HOF itself >>
Dal,
You are one nutty cat. You are so absolute and over the top with everything. I thought I was black/white...you must be coal/snow.
Bruce Sutter absolutely changes the game of baseball. Absolutely changed it. Prior to his new "trick pitch", hitting was taught completely different. He made the short, compact, linear swing happen. How many pitchers actually alter the way the entire game is taught and played?
Along with Hoffman, Rivera, Gossage, and to a lesser degree Dibble, Gagne, & Percival, Sutter meant game over. He used to go 2-3 innings routinely 2-3 times per week to put games away for the pitching-poor Cubs. I had an opportunity to listen to Dennis Lamp and Mike Krukow discuss Sutter's presence on that Cubs team and I'm sold. He pitched hurt so often it's actually scary. When he was in St. Louis he was also dominant. Bruce Sutter was/is a marvel of modern pitching and his election is overdue in my opinion.
As for Dawson, his .279 career average must be the killer. Had he hit .282 he would look more attractive. I think he's a guy the HOF would be proud to have on board. A true gentleman who has done things few have accomplished. The power/speed combination is matched only by Bonds and his 1600 RBI and 420 bombs along with his legendary throwing arm and gold-glove collection should seal the deal. Factor in the career being over, collusion, his blank contract, the Cubs insulting him with 500,000 and he wins the MVP on a last-place team with the best clutch season I ever saw followed by .300 seasons and .500+ slugging averages and a post-season appearance in '89 and I think the only thing missing would be a farewell tour. I guess the stop in his hometown of Miami wasn't the best idea and he wasn't exactly the return of the Bambino in Boston, but if Dawson isn't a HOF'er the title is lost on me. It's become a neat place to visit and look at the displays, but as for credentials making the entrance relevant...I'm not sure anyone will agree on what those are. I just enjoy the best players. Walt Weiss was a heck of a player. I would have voted for him with #25 just to give him some appreciation. His ability to draw a key walk, make a productive out, get a key hit, and lead his infield everywhere he played deserve some recognition. His game wasn't sexy, but he was a winning player. I think that voter is probably a more baseball savvy guy than most when push comes to shove.
dgf
It still amazes me that stats seem to be the only serious consideration for the HOF. Being a winner doesn't seem to matter unless you are a Yankee. I have become more of a football fan over the years, partly because great teams seem to get more attention that just individual stars.
Troy Aikman will probably get voted into the football HOF this year with Reggie White. Troy doesn't rank in the top 10 in any significant passing stat nor did he lead the league in any passing stats. However winning 3 Super Bowls and being part of a great team count for something. He doesn't get penalized becaused he had a great O-line, RB, and WR.
That is why I still push for Jack Morris. Everyone says how great the mid-80's Tigers were, however none of them have ever been serious HOF contenders. Jack was a key pitcher on 3 WS teams, but somehow the fat baseball writers can't get over his attitude.
The Goose
My favorite quote: "You never get thrown at today."
<< <i>I would have liked to have seen Rice get in as he was the most feared power hitter of his era.
last guy to get 400 total bases too i believe. >>
Last guy in the AL, yeah. In the NL, however, there has been:
1997 - Larry Walker (409)
1998 - Sammy Sosa (416)
2000 - Todd Helton (405)
2001 - Sammy Sosa (425)
The last AL guy before Rice was Joe Dimaggio in 1937 (418).
Tabe