Is this a new record for a 1993 refractor PSA 10 Piazza?

megatron · November 12, 2005 11:32PM

I usually collect these in a 8 or 9, but is this 10 a new record? Seller must be pretty happy.

Thanks

Lothar52 · November 12, 2005 11:40PM

i dont have a land to stand on....but for ME.....that is RIDICULOUS CASH for a card like that....

rbdjr1 · November 12, 2005 11:45PM

The buyer paid $279.00 for a PSA 9 look: PSA 9 Piazza

PSA 9: $279
PSA 10: $2456 (I can buy close to 24 PSA 10s for my 1976 Topps Registry set, for $2400, and many here would say that, "that's too much money to spend"! LOL!)

rbd

edit:

There seems to be plenty of PSA 10s from '93 Finest (both regular and refractors!), with three PSA 10 Piazza's so far listed in the PSA Pop Report, just how rare are these cards anyway?

julen23 · November 12, 2005 11:51PM

vanity of the senses brother.

Julen

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 12:09AM

I've been following the bidding habits of "Dgsgraded" for almost a year now and have always been very suspicious of this bidder. Usually only placing perfunctory bids on 1993 finest refractors, DGSgraded saves his or her most enthusiastic bidding on items of BBcardco.

There's a very hardcore group of 1993 refractor specialists on the boards, jmbkb4, winner of the Piazza being one of them. Has anyone else noticed the bidding pattern of DGSgraded in the past? I know PhilG and others keep a pretty comprehensive database of previous sales, but I'm wondering if they also scrutinized the bidders as well. If you follow 1993 Finest refractors, you KNOW who the heavy hitters are and if you follow bidding patterns, you'll definitely see a pattern emerge from certain sellers.

ndleo · November 13, 2005 12:10AM

Is Piazza even a first ballot HOF guy anymore?

ajw · November 13, 2005 12:32AM

<< Is Piazza even a first ballot HOF guy anymore? >>

He should be, if the voters know what they're doing.

PhilG · November 13, 2005 1:12AM

Ok I admit it. I track 93 refractors on eBay. I have written programs to track just about everything. I track sales. I track winning bids. I track losing bids. And more importantly, I track the girly threads on the Open Forum.

Phil

For what it is worth. Since November 2004,

dgsgraded bid on 398 auctions of bbcardco Won 52 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 18 auctions of auctionhelper Won 1 auction
dgsgraded bid on 4 auctions of seinbigd Won 0 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 1 auctions of razzdazzmt Won 0 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 1 auctions of smonize7 Won 0 auctions

My hoard of 2305 - 93 Finest Refractors

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 2:22AM

Thanks very much for the information, Phil.

dgsgraded tries to mask his bidding patterns by bidding on a variety of stuff, but when it comes to 1993 Finest refractors, his bidding pattern is as transparent as glass.

jmbkb4, as you can see, the facts speak for themselves. I know you and I had some disagreements in the past, but I'm just trying to help out and inform my fellow refractor collectors.

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 2:28AM

Hey there,

I've sold several PSA 10's to dgsgraded off eBay. I've been unloading several of my doubles so I could buy the Piazza. I was prepared to spend more, I think it's a great price. A 9 of Piazza recently sold for well over $400.

The Walker 10 ast night also sold for >$2800!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After all, it's only money.

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 2:30AM

jmbkb4, I just wanted to make sure I didn't read your message wrong. Are you saying it's ok that you were shilled on this card to the tune of paying an additional $2000??

If that's the case and you don't have a problem with it, then fine, but I just wanted to make sure.

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 2:35AM

<< Hey there,

I've sold several PSA 10's to dgsgraded off eBay. I've been unloading several of my doubles so I could buy the Piazza. I was prepared to spend more, I think it's a great price. A 9 of Piazza recently sold for well over $400.

The Walker 10 ast night also sold for >$2800!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After all, it's only money.

>>

Yeah, the Larry Walker sold for over $2,800. If not for DGsgraded and a zero feedback bidder, it appears you were the next highest bidder. If I didn't know any better, Bbcardco should spend a portion of the sales price to Dgsgraded because on just two cards, he was able to pocket Bbcardco almost $4,000. Good work if you can get it!

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 2:40AM

DBH, here we go again.

So you think the Piazza 10 is a $400 card? I'll quote you here -->

!!

I know dgsgraded and he needs the card; there's never been one on eBay before and there probably won't be one on again for at least awhile. Have you been tracking the prices of these PSA 10's. Ask Phil for them. $800 Bryan Harvey 10 when there were 11 in the Pop. report. $4200 Ripken 10 when there were 7 on the Pop. report. $1500 for a Mattingly when there were 15 in the Pop. report. I could go on, but I know you're not one to be too concerned with facts and figures; sensationalism is so much more fun!!!

I'll refer him to this thread, as well as Steve Aronson of bbcardco and let them know of your whiney antics.

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 2:49AM

Wow, are we even on the same topic here?

Jmb, I DON'T CARE what the perceived value of a Larry Walker or Mike Piazza PSA 10 is suppose to be. That's totally irrelevant to me. I'm interested in why one bidder will only bid on only the refractors of ONE SELLER and bid in such an odd way. PhilG's data concerning your underbidder reinforced my fears.

"For what it is worth. Since November 2004,

dgsgraded bid on 398 auctions of bbcardco Won 52 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 18 auctions of auctionhelper Won 1 auction
dgsgraded bid on 4 auctions of seinbigd Won 0 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 1 auctions of razzdazzmt Won 0 auctions
dgsgraded bid on 1 auctions of smonize7 Won 0 auctions"

It's great that you're so gung-ho about graded refractors and the Set Registry, but I think it's safe to say for people without such a vested interest, the whole situation reeks. Have fun with the Piazza though!

JohnRJackson · November 13, 2005 4:07AM

bighurt=tool

brianc · November 13, 2005 4:37AM

so are we saying that bbcardco is shilling? i just want to make sure.. i can not really tell by this thread? the reason i ask is because bbcardco is the card shop that i go to.. i just would like your opinions on their auctions.

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 4:41AM

bighurt = tool

Of course, everyone knows that! All kidding aside, however, I personally take pity on DBH for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he has come onto hard times, etc., but I don't understand why he has to derail so many threads on these boards!!

My heart goes out for you, DBH. I genuinely wish YOUR life had more meaning than to continually try to steal other people's happiness with inuendo, sensationalistic B.S., and passive-aggressive postings.

DBH, good luck to you! Really, I mean that.

(I won't post any more on this thread, as it is difficult to argue against someone who will not address my points and is so incredibly negative.)

P.S. The reason dgsgraded has bid on so many bbcardco's auctions is because Steve has sold the vase majority of the high-end 1993's on eBay, which is what dgs collects... But I wouldn't want to trouble/annoy DBH with facts.

bsfastball · November 13, 2005 4:41AM

I sold a Juan Guzman PSA 10 to dgsgraded for $609

He likes his refractors!

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 4:42AM

<< so are we saying that bbcardco is shilling? i just want to make sure.. i can not really tell by this thread? the reason i ask is because bbcardco is the card shop that i go to.. i just would like your opinions on their auctions. >>

In no uncertain terms, that is exactly what DABIGHURT is saying! But DABIGHURT has his own reputation around here, check out his prior posts...

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 5:17AM

I'm saying the bidding practice looks suspicious to me. I've been following refractor auctions and noticed a trend. That trend was reinforced by PhilG's information.

How sad is it that JMB doesn't even know he's got the hook buried deep in his belly? Poor fella doesn't even know he's been hooked!

Anyway, I think it's safe to say with the 1993 Finest refractor market, it's buyer beware. From the flood of cards on the market to the bidding practices of certain people. I'm not saying anything about Bbcardco shill bidding. I have no idea what he does or doesn't do. I'm going by what I see.

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 5:24AM

<< I sold a Juan Guzman PSA 10 to dgsgraded for $609

He likes his refractors! >>

bsfastball, you MUST be mistaken! As DBH has clearly proven, dgsgrded is a shill bidder in association with bbcardco!!!

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 5:58AM

Robeson · November 13, 2005 6:07AM

I've heard of dealer loyalty before, BUT bidding on 398 auctions of the same dealer does look more than a little bit strange. I guess some of these bidders just have a hard time seeing the truth. Kind of sad.

PhilG · November 13, 2005 6:28AM

Since November 2004 there have been 268 unique sellers of 93 Refractors on eBay. Well sort of, we lose a few to name changes and the like. Here is a list of the top 50 sellers and the number of auctions listed.

Phil

Seller Number of Auctions
bobbabo 1129
gourstar 1117
bbcardco 1026
auctionhelper 327
cp1525 212
wcsports1 206
inlandsales 153
yanc1 97
bsfastball 86
coolblu99 37
jose68 25
kuhlektore 25
indianatransam 24
bobbabo1 23
rcjdwj 23
cavaliercards 21
aruba71 17
seinbigd 17
Unknown 17
member87000 15
blikemike2t 12
roundballjay 12
athletic-attitudes 11
indianoutlaw 11
tania98 11
danielk502 10
lagrangeicon 10
razzdazzmt 10
needingothers 9
patmack98 9
smonize7 9
cr6163 8
daviscvn65 8
gemelitegrading 8
mertle11 8
sanpedro13 8
xyankee61x 8
benwest0404 7
hoopplayer 7
asianrice1983 6
brayson 6
colacat 6
fbcc2 6
kidagaincollectibles 6
sloedog34 6
christina5660 5
dunnan 5
gemspecialist 5
lisaanne408 5
shaqfu1 5

My hoard of 2305 - 93 Finest Refractors

bsfastball · November 13, 2005 7:41AM

I've sold 86 refractors? holy crap!

ajw · November 13, 2005 8:53AM

PhilG, did you get that info from some Big Brother PATRIOT Act database?

Seriously, it kind of scares me.

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 9:50AM

DBH,

FYI, I've received 2 offers via eBay since the auction has ended to purchase the Piazza 10 for a 10% or so profit. I've declined both. Go back to your pitiful life!

iBuyUsell · November 13, 2005 10:07AM

WOW,
$2450, for card with a Vertical REFRACTOR Line!!
I'll pass.

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 10:11AM

Didn't you say you weren't going to post anymore in this thread? I guess in between partying with rock stars and playmates, you found time from your hectic schedule jetsetting the world to post on the PSA boards?

By the way, that sound you heard was the crashing of your silly "OH WELL DGSGRADED ONLY BUYS FROM BBCARDCO BECAUSE ONLY HE SELLS THEM ON THE EBAYZ!! LOLOLOL hypothesis.

I guess the people who supposedly sent you offers to buy the Piazza PSA 10 didn't have access to the internet yesterday, huh? So that's why these people decided to offer you so much more, because only you were the only person who was able to log online last night. Makes perfect sense!!

wallst32 · November 13, 2005 10:33AM

dgsgraded has bid on and won refractors from other sellers

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 11:01AM

You bring up a very valid point, Wallst32. But what if WCsports and Bbcardco are both the same seller? I double checked and found the following:

Bbcardco's Bryan Harvey refractor photo was hosted at: http://images.auctionhelper.com/images/9593/harvey.JPG

Bbcardco's Lee Smith refractor photo is hosted at: http://images.auctionhelper.com/images/9593/dr16.JPG

WCsports's Deion Sanders refractor photo was hosted at: http://images.auctionhelper.com/images/9593//ref0052.jpg

WCsports's Mcgwire refractor photo was hosted at: http://images.auctionhelper.com/images/9593//ref0016.jpg

Looks to me both sellers share the auctionhelper account "9593," no?

Ahmanfan · November 13, 2005 1:07PM

To get this thread back on track.

that seems like a lot of extra dough to pay for a card you probably can hardly tell apart from your psa 9. Is it worth it to have 5 pixels better centering for that extra 2k? Or is it for registry purposes? Or just, you have the disposable income, and feel that much better having the card in a 10 slab?

Not being sarcastic at all, this is just a straightforward question.

John

kingraider75 · November 13, 2005 1:19PM

I guess something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's the basic premise of what's it worth. The card had over 400 looks, so I guess $2k is the going rate. Seems way to high to me, but I don't know jack about 1993 Refractors.

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 1:35PM

$2,000+ would be the going rate if the underbidder was a legit bidder. At this point, even the biggest refractor apologists will have to acknowledge something fishy is going on.

PSA graders are notorious for being inconsistent with 1993 finest refractors. Today's PSA 8 is tomorrow's PSA 9 and 10, but who cares about things like that when it comes to the Set Registry?

JohnRJackson · November 13, 2005 1:44PM

<< $2,000+ would be the going rate if the underbidder was a legit bidder. At this point, even the biggest refractor apologists will have to acknowledge something fishy is going on. >>

lol youre the only one who thinks theres something rotten going on. wtf is your problem quit being a downer

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 1:57PM

<< lol youre the only one who thinks theres something rotten going on. wtf is your problem quit being a downer >>

Like I've always said, DBH likes sensationalistic diatribes!!!

DBH, I see that dgsgraded is bidding on at least 2 of my cards that I've got listed on eBay right now. He's bid >>$400 on both items and is the higher bidder on one. Let me get this straight (and correct me if I'm wrong). Now you're saying that wcsports1 (David Rayter), bbcardco (Steve Aronson), and doctor*daddy (me) are the same person because dgsgraded has bid on all of our items? Perhaps eBay is one big conspiracy/MATRIX and all of its members are, in all actuality, one person!!!

On the other hand, dgsgraded could just buy 1993 Refractors in high grades. Don't let other individuals on here (bsfastball, for example) deter you, DBH!!!

I was going to stop posting on this thread, but I love to see your logic disintegrate so predictably!!!

jmbkb4 · November 13, 2005 2:02PM

<< To get this thread back on track.

that seems like a lot of extra dough to pay for a card you probably can hardly tell apart from your psa 9. Is it worth it to have 5 pixels better centering for that extra 2k? Or is it for registry purposes? Or just, you have the disposable income, and feel that much better having the card in a 10 slab?

Not being sarcastic at all, this is just a straightforward question.

John >>

Happy to answer. Is it worth the extra $2K? To me, absolutely. It's the last "star player" I need in a 10 and Mike Piazza is one of my favorite players. I've always wanted this card in a 10. It has notoriously difficult L/R centering. Both of my 9's are 60/40 at best L/R (65/35 in all actuality).

As far as a disposable income, I just turned 25. All my income is "disposable"!!!

Ahmanfan · November 13, 2005 2:23PM

thanks for the answer!

Looks like you now have the best of the best when it comes to Piazza cards!
John

DaBigHurt · November 13, 2005 2:23PM

<< Let me get this straight (and correct me if I'm wrong). Now you're saying that wcsports1 (David Rayter), bbcardco (Steve Aronson), and doctor*daddy (me) are the same person because dgsgraded has bid on all of our items? Perhaps eBay is one big conspiracy/MATRIX and all of its members are, in all actuality, one person!!!
>>

Riiighhhhtttt. That's exactly what I said.

I've heard of people burying their head in the sand before, but this is now just downright sad.

The reason I brought up the fact that WCsports1 and Bbcardco were sharing the same auctionhelper account was because someone said Dgsgraded doesn't just buy refs from Bbcardco, that there's proof he's won auctions from WCsports1. My point was to show Dgsgraded STILL only purchased refractors 99.999% of the time from just one person. That person being Bbcardco. Or are you going to start saying Bbcardco has been the only guy who has sold PSA 9 and 10 refractors in the last year?

PhilG · November 13, 2005 2:33PM

Someone was concerned about the data I’ve been posting. Let me explain. There is nothing devious just some programs I have written. Visual basic allows you to drive, in this case, Internet Explorer and Excel. A program I wrote extracts the active Auction Numbers from the eBay search result web page and stores them in a spreadsheet. The program then saves the auction number along with a timestamp of when the auction ends. I run this program every few days. It’s not perfect as I occasionally miss a few auctions. Has real trouble when the number of active auctions exceeds 200.

The next program uses the saved auction numbers spreadsheet to obtain the completed auction data. Once the auction has ended as indicated by the timestamp the program does a completed auction search using the auction number. The data is dumped to a spreadsheet and parsed. For each completed auction I save the following:

eBay Auction Number
Card Number
Beckett book value
Percent of book sold for
PSA grade if any
eBay auction title
Ending price
Number of Bids
Ending date and time
Hi bidder
Seller
Date of Hi Bid

Next Highest Bid
Next Highest Bidder
Date and time of Next Highest Bidder

The last three repeat until all the bidders in the auction are saved

The remaining programs are used to extract and format the data. For instance, for the seller data I posted, I have a program that sorts the seller column and counted the number of auctions per seller.

See it’s all very simple.

Phil

DaBigHurt · November 14, 2005 12:01AM

PhilG's database has been a wealth of information for 1993 finest refractor collectors. When I first posted about the troubling bidding patterns of Dgsgraded, I had a suspicion other refractor collectors knew what I was talking about, and thankfully, PhilG's records confirmed what I believed all along. I thought Jmb, the high bidder in the Piazza auction would welcome the information disclosed. I know if I was bidding on a high dollar item and the underbidder had a VERY suspicious bidding pattern, I would like to know about it.

The reaction by JMB is strange to say the least.

Maybe he thinks I'm on a anti-refractor campaign or something, when all I'm trying to do is warn him and others that they could be getting shilled on bids, and that they should be careful.

Heck, look at the bidding practices yourself. It's in black and white. I love refractors as much as the next person, but you won't see me bidding 99% of the time on just the auctions of one person when there are others out there who sell the same thing.

Is this a new record for a 1993 refractor PSA 10 Piazza?

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