1959 Bell Brand Rams - A quest for the set registry

bowdowntome · February 14, 2005 4:05PM

First off let me say that I am not even a member of PSA.........yet. That will change shortly, I'm giving in to the long stand off. Mostly because I wanna play too!

But before I make the leap forward, I'd like to ask a few ????'s to the experts here.

1. Is it difficult to add a new set to the registry, if it is not listed? Will they accept any sets, or do they have to have X amount of requests before they will add it?

The set I wanna add is the 1959 Bell Brand Rams set, possibly the 1960 set as well. I noticed the Bell Brand Dodger sets only have a couple registered.

On condition sensitive sets, that are also difficult to find in any condition, is it generally acceptible to have cards graded that are not going to grade high? I notice in the Dodger sets that there are quite a few 5's and 6's, so I guess I won't be too worried about my Rams cards coming back with similar grades.

The Rams cards are much more difficult to find in any grade, compared to the Dodger cards. I have never even seen a graded Bell Brand Rams card.. Actually, I haven't seen that many, in any condition, pass through ebay at all, in the 6 years I've been on.

But, if it's going to be a big deal to add a new unlisted set to the registry, then I probably won't bother.

1977topps · February 14, 2005 10:24PM

I recently added a new set to the Registry, it took over a month. However, once I provided the set weighting, it went live quickly. I am the only one with this set entered.
They will accept any set as far as I know, and there doesn't need to be a certain number of requests for it. Providing the weighting will definitely speed the process up.
How many cards are in the set?

bowdowntome · February 14, 2005 11:22PM

There is 40 cards in the 1959 set and 39 in the 1960 set. As soon as I swing a deal I'm working on right now, I'll end up with 38 of the 40 cards from the 1959 set, with the average grade probably being in the EXMT-NRMT range
I've read a couple threads here about "weighting" but am still not sure about it. Is it dependant on rarity, in a particular grade? There are no real rarities in the 1959 set. Only a few stars and popular players that would be more pricey than the commons. In the big yearly Beckett (2001) the commons are listed at $35 in NRMT, with the stars going up to $75.

Fuzz · February 14, 2005 11:54PM

Firstly, welcome to the wonderful addiction that most of us share.
Should be cake. At least kind of. Usually they require that you have a few cards graded that you can enter into your set request. So if you join, you may want to use your freebies to grade a few of them and then get the set listed. It only takes one requestor and depending on the load on their plate at the time, it does not take long at all and is quite easy. Don't woory about the weighting. None of the BB sets are weighted and the current plan is to keep it that way.
If you can land 90+ of a set in true 6's and 7's you will win that set year after year. However, I suspect that you are in for the shock that the rest of us were on our first submissions. I have some really nice Bell Brands that came back 2's. Stuff that is described Ex-Mt could be a 4. Old grading style NM can often be a 5 or a 6. That being said, grade them all. It will give you a basis to upgrade from, an easy way to move your duplicates and on these, ANY grade is good for a while. I have thought about this set several times but have not found even a few with a chance at a seven or most of a set. In this case you may have both.
Also, great work on the 63 info. I suspect that someday, it will be a Master set on the registery now that we know what we are looking for.
Good Luck,
Fuzz

bowdowntome · February 15, 2005 12:38AM

Fuzz, I suspect you may be right about the first time grading. That is one reason that has kept me out of the game this long. I've had too many people tell me that they feel that first timers, or people who don't spend alot of money with PSA don't get very good returns on their gradings. Well, I guess you gotta start somewhere though. It will be interesting though seeing what PSA's view on my cards are compared to my own.

I see you also do the Bell's. You are already aware then how hard the yare to find in any kind of nice condition. I've seen ratty examples, with creases, sell on ebay for $20+. But, like I said, never seen any graded Rams examples.

What exactly do you suspect turned your nice examples into 2's?

I've got a few that are still in the original cellophane, would they grade these? They aren't really raw cards, but they aren't really packs either. Would I need to remove the cellophane to get it graded? Would it be worth it?

About the 1963's. It sort of became an obsession, and there are now a couple others interested as well, but no real general interest. I've tried contacting price guides to get them listed, or at least mentioned, but to no avail. I've had people suggest I write an article and submit it to various magazines, but I'm no writer, nor am I much of a researcher. Couple that with the fact that it would almost have to be a magazine that is printed in color (SCD would not work well), to properly show examples, and the possibilities rally start to narrow down. I've since decided that I may just keep building on to the site as I find things out, and let it stand as an article by itself. I'll just try to promote it that way. Maybe, after a while, someone of importance will take notice.
Thanks for checking it out, by the way.

onlychild · February 15, 2005 1:34PM

Welcome to the world of Bells! It is somewhat easy to submit a set, they usually require you have a certain % already graded and will probably ask for a checklist if they don't have one already. Check the PSA registry rules. You will also need to fill out a set request form, there is a tab on the registry home page.

Until just recently a PSA 5 or 6 was a high grade for any Bell, 7's & 8's are very hard to find...a 9 will cost you a bundle if you can find one. Putting together an entire set is a labor of love. The baseball Bells are tough, the football may be a monster with those yellow borders. Either way it's not always about the grade, it's about cards that YOU appreciate. Bell football cards are usually not as high as baseball on eBay. Just have fun, collect what pleases you and enjoy the hunt.

Kevin Saucier

onlychild · February 15, 2005 1:50PM

<< <i>I've got a few that are still in the original cellophane, would they grade these? They aren't really raw cards, but they aren't really packs either. Would I need to remove the cellophane to get it graded? Would it be worth it? >>

They would need to be removed from the cello before being graded. It's always a risk that once in the open the card will reveal surface scratches, dings or stains that you couldn't or didn't see. Is it worth it? It depends. I bought a 62 Drysdale in the cello, removed it and got lucky. Others I know have been deeply disappointed. It's all up to you my freind!

I enjoy my graded sets but I also own several raw sets that I like just as much. The raws are fun because you can hold and feel the cardboard. I once identified the year of 12 out of 12 Bells blindfolded, only by feel....how sick and is that?

Kevin

MorrellMan · February 15, 2005 1:57PM

BDTM - Bell Brand Rams are a great addition to the registry. That "deal" that's going to bring you 38/40 on the '59 set has my heart pumping. Good luck. They are incredibly tough to find in high quality condition. I collected them as a kid and I'd love to pick some up, but every one I see is hammered.

You have a number of Bell Brand allies here.

bowdowntome · February 15, 2005 6:11PM

onlychild - Thanks for the welcome, although I've been "persuing" the Bell Rams cards for a few years now (and not having much success at that). I stil kick myself when I think back to the pre-ebay days, and finding listings for Bell Rams cards, and not taking advantage of the opportunity. Now, I have to compete with a few very loyal Bell enthusiasts on ebay (and losing mostly). So when this chance to obtain almost a complete set in one fell swoop came around, well, it just makes sense to try to get them. Afterall, I can't even imagine how long it might take to find this many one card at a time. I'm just figuring that I've probably missed the boat or lost out on at least 38 in the past couple years, so this will be justice for me...for being patient.
You are right about the BB v. FB comparison though, there isn't quite the star power in the FB set as there is in the baseball set. In fact there is really only 1 major "star" card in the 1959 set, which is Ollie Matson. Couple that with the fact that football sets in general have never been as popular or pricey, as their basbeall set counterparts, which is fine. But on the otherhand, I'm willing to bet that the football Bell's were not printed or distributed in as high of quantity as the Basebell sets either. Anyway you look at it, they're all tough cards to find, seem to have loyal followings, and are all very nice looking cards IMO.

The yellow bordered set was from 1960 and the white border set (this is the one I'm working right now) was 1959. The Yellow set is something I'm guessing very few will be able to complete, as it boasts a SP card of
Gene Selawski, which is priced at $1500 in the BIG yearly Beckett. I've only seen 1, which was pretty rough.

BTW, nice article!

Morrellman - One of my dreams as a collector is to stumble across a wherehouse find of Bell Brand Rams cards that never made it into potato chip bags, due to a lackof interest at the time, that I could slowlyrelease to the card collecting market. Consequently, one of my biggest nightmares would be that someone else makes a wherehouse find and dumps them all on the market, deflating the value that they had been building over time.

Anyway, here is one of my Bell Rams cellos. It's centered pretty well if I do say so, and no stains that I can see.

Jack Pardee Bell Brand

I'll probably just keep the wrapped ones sealed, I'm sure there can't be that many still floating around, can there?

NickM · February 16, 2005 5:08AM

You have to have 3 graded cards from a set to submit a set request. Currently, they are inputting set requests from November.

If no weighting is submitted, all cards will start off with a weight of 1. Until there are multiple collectors participating in a registry for a non-mainstream set, that's probably the way the weights should be.

The more requests there are for a particular set, the higher it moves in line to be created on the registry, but even 1 request is sufficient.

Nick

CopperJJ · February 16, 2005 11:03AM

I joined back in December and requested several sets to be added...2000 Elite Football, 1999 Elite Passing the Torch, 1999 Ionix Reciprocal BB, and a few more. All my set were added a few weeks ago, so if you have the 3 cards needed to request, I think they are working hard to add new sets. Seems to me the more sets they have, the more interest.

bowdowntome · February 22, 2005 3:58PM

Well, "the deal" (transaction) has been completed and I have the Bell's. They are far and above better than the average condition you find on these tough cards.
I actually got them by accident, and I took a big chance on them as well. I was doing a google search for Bell Brand Rams, and came across a sports card website out of Michigan, called Higbees. Never heard of them before, but decided to see what they had anyway. Well, they had this near set (38 of 40) listed for $750, alot of money for me, especially on something sight unseen. So I emailed them to ask if it was still available and if they could send a scan or 2. They said yes and they sent a scan. I was stunned at the quality in the smallish scan, but I thought to myself "If those cards are half as good as they look, then they are twice as good as what's generally available, and at a comparable price per card". So after a couple more emails I decided to go for it. The store owner said he thought I would be very pleased with them, and pleased I am! he told me that they bought out a store a while back and these were in a box marked "MISCELLANEUS". He didn't even know what they were until recently. They actually look like they've been sitting around since 1959, in a box. The yare all beautiful. The neat thing is that the store was also having a 10" off sale for the month, so that dropped it down to $675, plus, he confided to me that he just noticed 2 of the 38 cards had a crease, so he would further discount the set $50. It's now down to $625. "I'll take it" I said!

I can't imagine how long it might take to put this many nice Bell Rams together card by card. It comes to around $16 per card, including shipping. That's much better than most of the G-VG cards I've seen recently sell for. I'm just stoked!

Here is a scan that shows cards 1-4, and is very typical of the condition and quality. Very few have stains, and luckily, the worst ones are also the 2 cards with creases.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions from some of you Bell collectors, as to the conditon of these compared to what you generally see. IMO, these are very nice compared to what is usually found.

Now the next step is to procure my Gold membership to get the wheels a turnin' (I was actually waiting until I got the cards to be sure I wasn't going to be wasting time and money getting these graded, if they turned out to be less than satisfactory).

bowdowntome · February 22, 2005 4:42PM

Ok, now that I actually have a Gold membership (Yes, I've been assimilated), got a couple more ???'s

I was curious to see the population report on Bell Brand Rams, but there don't appear to be any. Does that mean no Bell Brand Rams have been graded by PSA to date? Or does it simply mean that because there is no set registry for them, they don't show up on the pop report either?

More questions to follow, I'm sure.

fsjeter · February 23, 2005 7:10AM

Welcome!! The Registry and the Population report are independant of each other. In other words, the pop report shows the total number of cards graded (that PSA currently grades) and is not dependant on whether there is a set on the registry or not. I make that distinction because at one time PSA graded Star Basketball Jordan cards but you won't find them in the pop reports. If there are no Bell Brand Rams in the pop report then one of two things has happened: 1) there are none graded, or 2) the pop report hasn't been updated to reflect any Bell Brand Rams cards that were recently graded.

Scott

bowdowntome · March 3, 2005 2:03AM

I can't imagine that after all this time not 1 BB Ram card has been graded by PSA. Between the 1960, 61, nd 62 BB Dodger cards, there have been in excess of 500 graded. Are they just that much more popular? Is there that many more inexistance? They had to have graded at least 1 BB Ram by now. I think I'lll tend to believe they have but just haven't shown up on any reports yet.

We'll know soon enough. I just sent in my voucher for 6 free grades, all BB Ram cards.

Maybe I'll be the first?

Another question - In the information packet I got in the mail from PSA, there is a brochure that explains a little about the set registry. On the back it lists a bunch of awards given for sets. I notice there are 3 that are baseball specific, why isn't there any football specific awards?

Just another example of "no respect" for the football guys?

bowdowntome · March 20, 2005 3:40AM

Well, my 6 free submisison grades are in, the cards are on their way back to me, and I have submitted a request for the '59 Bell Rams to be added to the registry. The set is now listed in their request list, so now what? Is it just a matter of waiting? Is there a chance they might "reject" the request?

lostdart58 · March 20, 2005 4:23AM

So I guess they graded the cards afterall..........How did they grade? Where the grades what you expected?

bowdowntome · March 20, 2005 4:33AM

Yes, they graded them.

12152766 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 1 BILL WADE N/A 6
12152767 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 2 BUDDY HUMPHREY N/A 7
12152768 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 3 FRANK RYAN N/A 6
12152769 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 4 ED MEADOR N/A 7
12152770 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 5 TOM WILSON N/A 6
12152771 1959 BELL BRAND RAMS 6 DON BURROUGHS N/A 5

I can't really say if it's what I expected or not. I didn't really have any expectations since I'm not really familiar with grading, so i just sent the first 6 cards in the set in and let PSA do their thing. After looking at the grades now and comparing them to my scans I made, I think they' are probably accurate enough. The one thing that I did notice that I didn't understand is that the Tom Wilson got a 6 while the Burroughs got a 5. Both have a similar, wear pattern in the bottom right corner, but the Wilson, I though, looked a bit worse, yet it got a higher grade. Must have been something else they saw. But, now I have examples of PSA 5, 6, and 7 to judge the rest by, so I'm pretty happy. I have at least 2 that have as nice or nicer corners than the 7's above, but have almost perfect centering, so if any are worthy of an 8 it might be those.

Now, I don't know if I should send the rest in on some kind of monthly special or wait until the set get's registered and take advantage of any set registry specials.

MorrellMan · March 20, 2005 6:02AM

BDTM - those are great grades for Bells.
8s are near impossible to get on these cards; of the 4 you scanned, the Meador looked like the best.
Congrats - you are going into uncharted waters with a very desireable set.
If I may humbly make a suggestion, you might consider changing the title of this thread to 1959 Bell Brand Rams.
Good luck with the chase. During your quest, don't forget me with your doubles.

Buccaneer · March 20, 2005 6:14AM

<< <i>Old grading style NM can often be a 5 or a 6.
Fuzz >>

Ain't that the truth...except they were labeled "MINT" back in those days.

bowdown, nice cards...about what I would have guessed except for the Ryan. I still haven't figured out what the standards are for cards with obvious eye appeal problems like stains and print smudges.

MorrellMan · March 20, 2005 6:18AM

With Bells, condition grading is a whole other thing:

bowdowntome · March 20, 2005 10:46AM

Bucc, MM - Thanks. I really thought the Ryan would be low card on the totem pole because of the spotiness. But, like I said earlier, I really think there will be a couple thatmay pull 8's, based on what they gave these.

MM - That's a good idea about renaming the thread, but how do I do it? Nevermind, I figured it out. BTW, that is some stain on that Fairly card. I haven't noticed anything like that on my RAMS cards, just spotiness. There is one other card that looks like the Ryan, but that's about it.

About dupes - Well, long ago I sold the few dupes I previously had, on ebay. Now, the dupes I am left with are the ones that might be decribed as the "hammered" variety, with thte exceptino of the 3 that are still sealed, which I will keep in that form. But, if I, by some strange chance, can upgrade any of this new baqcth I got, I'll give you first shot since you are the first to ask.

There are probably 3, maybe 4, I will opt to not send in because of creases and other really bad things. These, I think I can improve upon without much trouble..........I hope.

MorrellMan · March 20, 2005 10:49AM

<< <i>These, I think I can improve upon without much trouble..........I hope. >>

O so famous last words!

Go into your last post by hitting the edit button in the lower left corner. If I'm not mistaken, since it is your thread, you can then change the title of the thread.

bowdowntome · March 20, 2005 10:56AM

Got it, I believe.

The worst cards have a huge crease going straight thru the middle of them, but great corners. I think I would be happier with copies that had softer corners and maybe some staining, but without the crease. In short a more solid, eye appealing card, even if not a great card.

bowdowntome · March 21, 2005 10:41AM

Ok, so how does this pop report work now?

IN an earlier post, it was said that the absence of Bell Rams cards on the pop report could either mean that non had been graded, or that recent ones hadn't been added in the update. They just updated the pop report today and there are still no Bell Rams showing, even though 6 were graded on the 16th. Is there a "lag" time between being graded and showing up on the report? Will they more likely show up on the next update? Or do they only add sets or cards to the pop report when a minimum number have been graded?

lostdart58 · March 21, 2005 12:02PM

<< <i>Ok, so how does this pop report work now?

IN an earlier post, it was said that the absence of Bell Rams cards on the pop report could either mean that non had been graded, or that recent ones hadn't been added in the update. They just updated the pop report today and there are still no Bell Rams showing, even though 6 were graded on the 16th. Is there a "lag" time between being graded and showing up on the report? Will they more likely show up on the next update? Or do they only add sets or cards to the pop report when a minimum number have been graded? >>

Patience, patience patience........not having access to the pop reports, I will assume that Bells Rams are not listed rather then Bell Rams being listed with no cards. Before ya know it there will be Bell Rams in the pop report and a Bell Ram set registry.

Remember......you are going where no man has gone before.......

Fuzz · March 21, 2005 12:18PM

Normally pop reposrts update pretty quickly. In this special case, they will actually have to adjust the menu for the year so that the report can be pulled. You may want to call cs and see if they can tell you who to get in contact with. It used to be Peter Ma but I don't know anymore. I suspect that this sort of thing does not come up all that often and that a little "heads up" might speed the process up a bit.
Fuzz

bowdowntome · March 25, 2005 1:16PM

****WARNING - RANT ALERT****

I can't believe that football cards still get no respect. I emailed PSA a few days ago to ask why the BB Rams don't show up on the pop reprot, since it was updated after the grades were posted. Well, the short answer is that they got listed "incorrectly" in the pop report, but will be corrected to show up in the next updating. That's cool, so where exactly did they misplace them on the pop report? I don't know. I thought I could use their player search function to see if I could find them that way, but low and behold..........the search function DOES NOT SEEM TO WORK FOR ALL FOOTBALL PLAYERS!! According to the search function on the pop report, there are no Jim Brown cards listed, nor are there any Johnny Unitas cards.

No respect I tell ya'!

MorrellMan · March 25, 2005 1:52PM

I had to look back on this thread; I guess I didn't post it here, but somewhere I recently recounted what happened with the first '59 Morrell I submitted in 1999, the first '59 Morrell ever sent in to PSA - it came back as a 1960, which I didn't even notice for a couple of years, and the card was posted to the '60 pop report. I was going to suggest you check the label on your cards when they come back, because they may have done the same with yours - that is, identified them as an issue they already have in their data base. Simple mechanical fix, though - don't raise you're blood pressure over it.

bowdowntome · March 25, 2005 2:14PM

MM - Not really upset, just impatient I guess. I realize they get lot's of submissions and they will make errors and there will be mechanical gafs, especially if it's something new to them. No biggy.

I too thought they might have placed them in 1960, or even maybe in the Bell Brand Dodger section. I looked at alot of the years that they might be mixed up with like 1969, 1949, 1958, etc.

But, I got the cards in the mail the day before yesterday and they appear to be labled correctly.

Here is one of the 7's.

rickster · March 26, 2005 12:15AM

The photography of the '59 Football cards looks similar to the Dodger 1960 Bells. I remember when I bought about 8 of the Dodger 1960 Bells, raw, at a national about 10 years ago, i think in St. Louis. Most of the cards this dealer had were real sweet, and he charged a premium for them as a result. Two of the cards (including the Koufax), ended up grading a 9, and most of the rest were 8's. Anyways, the point of my post was that the guy also had the Football Bells Brands, and they looked just as nice. he tried to talk me into them, but after dropping around $500 for cards that booked for half that amount I was reluctant to spend any more on these (remember, this was around 1994). The good news is that these great looking cards are out there somewhere.

Rick

bowdowntome · March 28, 2005 11:04AM

Rikster - Sounds like I should have gone to that show,. Actually, that St Louis national was going on at the same time I was relocating to Missouri from So Cal, but I had no time for cards. Probably just as well since I most likely woul have passed them up, if there was a premium involved.........I'm cheap.......I mean I'm spendthrift.....er.....I mean frugal....bo real way around it is there

***UPDATE***
True to their words, PSA has corrected the pop report, and the 1959 Bell Brand Rams are present and accounted for now, and to my surprise, mine are not the only ones showing up. There have been a total of 18 graded (6 of them mine), with no 9's, 4 - 8's, 1 8Q, 4 - 7's, 6 - 6's and 3 - 5's, so I guess mine are in good company amongst the middle of the pack.

1959 Bell Brand Rams - A quest for the set registry

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