1969-S double die obverse Lincoln question

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Dan50
Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I need some information on where best to obtain info on the 69-S ddo Lincoln. Such as were there more than one die var. with this coin. Case in point, the 55 ddo had also what is known as the poor mans dbl die. My reason for asking is to try to decide if my 69- S is the one listed on the PCGS pop report. I don't want to submit it under the wrong coin number. Any help will be greatly welcomed. Dan.
Dan

Comments

  • grip
    grip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Dan
    I would think you would get your answer with a good scan of the coin.
    Al
  • wingedliberty
    wingedliberty Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭
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    The Complete guide to Lincoln Cent Die Varieties by John Wexler and also in the Cherry Pickers Guide.
    Go to www.money.org , the ANA Marketplace shop has an extensive Lincoln variety book section for sale.
    Good luck.
  • seanq
    seanq Posts: 8,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    coppercoins.com has a description but no picutres. The best advice I can give you is this: If you have any doubt if your 1969-S cent is a doubled die, then it's not a doubled die. The '69-S is a *huge doubled die, naked-eye strong from across the room. The date and motto will have two distinct and separate impressions, and the mint mark will *not* be doubled - it was punched into the die separately. This date is also known for severe strike doubling, which is more shelf-like and will show on the mintmark as well as the date.

    If you can somehow get a picture ofthe coin, several people here can tell you if you have the ultra-rare variety or the more common strike-doubled version.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • wingedliberty
    wingedliberty Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭
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    Also, there is a common misnomer in calling doubled dies as "double" dies. The proper term is doubled to denote an adjective rather than "double" to denote the quantity of dies. When speaking about a doubled die, we are describing the die and not denoting the quantity of dies.
  • pharmer
    pharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
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    The poor man's is not another die for the big ddo, it's just from old, worn out dies. If you have a 1969s ddo-1, you have hit the lottery. It is pictured in many books. Strike doubling is very common for 1969s 1c.

    Bill
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    Dude !

    Just went through an OBW roll of those !

    1 possible RPM and 10 total nice MS coins,if ya dont hit the big kahuna,look at the pops and prices of the ms 66 and 7 coins,you might be a happy camper !

    Proof
    image
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    Sean that pretty well tells me something. Mine, at least to my poor eyes, has to be viewed under magnification to be seen clearly. It is doubled on the date, & liberty. As for the S mint mark, there are so many in the roll that this came from with clogged S's, Im not sure of the doubling on that. Thanks .. Dan.
    Dan
  • BigBucNutts
    BigBucNutts Posts: 22
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    Try this link

    http://www.coingallery.org/1969SDDOPCGSMS65RD.html

  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    Dan,

    My roll was marked "Bowser Inc., Sunnyvale,Calif."

    The coin was initially thought to be a counterfeit.

    See Breen 2252
    image
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    BBN thanks.. Now that shows me I must have the KMart version, since mine is not doubled as much as that. Oh well dreams come and dreams go. image
    Dan
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    Proof this was a OBW roll, but nothing I think would be worth grading, outside what I thought to be the doubled one. Of course I'm still trying to get the hang of grading Lincolns. This roll will go into my desk drawer for a relook after I get some exp. image
    Dan
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    Wild DDO for sure !

    My roll was in my dads hoard,im sure he had not searched it,he really had no interest in coins.
    Probably bought it after my Mother died in 1968.

    Link O Rama

    Proof
    image
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    On second look,is this the DDO or machine doubling ?

    Copper coins book would indicate this coin is machine double and not the real McCoy ?

    If you have a double date and a single mint and Liberty,maybees you have something !

    Proof
    image
  • poorguy
    poorguy Posts: 4,317 ✭
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    naked-eye strong from across the room

    Now how's THAT for a describing a DD. image
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    Yeah man, I knew I was sunk when he said from across the room.
    Proof, my LIBERTY is doubled. image
    Dan
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    Think about this !
    If you have multiple devices that are doubled,would it have to be machine doubled ?
    Very Likely.
    That link i posted would seem to be machine doubling !

    Not a true DDO,unless i am mistaken !

    True DD would be more like an RPM ?
    image
  • poorguy
    poorguy Posts: 4,317 ✭
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    True DD would be more like an RPM ?

    I thought that would be D/D. image

    DD = Doubled Die. Well at least in my happy little anti-logical mind it rests comfortably. image
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    Semantics

    D/D would be an RPM

    We are talking about the DDO of the 1969S Linky,DDO of the 1969 ONLY

    If the coin exibits a doubled 1969 only and not the MM or Liberty it's likely the Lottery !

    The Link i posted is a machine double or triple coin and not the real deal.

    Proof
    image
  • RELLA
    RELLA Posts: 963 ✭✭✭
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    image

    RELLA
    Do not fall into the error of the artisan
    who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
    while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
    twenty times.
  • shylock
    shylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
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    A larger version of the full coin from that Blay collection link.

    image
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • RELLA
    RELLA Posts: 963 ✭✭✭
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    Nice coin, Stewart...nice pic, Shylock.

    Close-ups of the date and LIBERTY:

    image
    image

    RELLA
    Do not fall into the error of the artisan
    who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
    while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
    twenty times.
  • Conder101
    Conder101 Posts: 10,536 ✭
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    << <i>The Link i posted is a machine double or triple coin and not the real deal. >>


    Proof, I'm confused because the link you posted

    Link-O-Rama
    IS a doubled die.
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    My error i reckon,i understood only the date was doubled.
    image
  • astrorat
    astrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Rella's picture is a great example of a doubled die. Notice the split serifs ('E' in LIBERTY and the bottom loop of the '6' in the date). . . that is the KEY feature of a doubled die as opposed to machine doubling (flat, shelf-like doubling).

    Lane
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    Thanks for all the help guys. As I said above, mine must be the KMART one. The date, liberty and mint mark are all doubled. But no where near as the picture shows. The first strike on mine is just south of the second, and I see no doubling of in God we trust like the picture shows. So I guess what I have is just another 69-S penny. Thanks again.. Dan.
    Dan
  • RBinTex
    RBinTex Posts: 4,328 ✭
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    If the mintmark is doubled it is almost certainly NOT FS-028. Unless it IS a discovery piece that ALSO contains an RPM - but of course that's all fantasy imageimage

    BTW, if you have to ask, it is NOT the real Mcoy as looking at the real thing you'd be dizzy & nauseus (I know I spelt that rong - I think???) inside of 30 seconds. image
  • shylock
    shylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
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    Dan - identifying true doubled dies is the most confusing thing I've encountered in numismatics. Yours may look similar to the machine doubled 1969-S on the bottom of this page.

    The key thing to look for with machine doubling is the shelf-like/flat appearance of the first strike, as Lane mentioned. A machine doubled strike is one strike that "chatters" due to a loose die, resulting in the die rubbing against the planchet between the quick successive hits. Hence the flat look of the initial hit. A doubled die has true doubled impressions transferred from the die, which originated from the hub it was created with. The key is rounded edges of the devices (as designed) and complete separation of the details in some cases. You really have to recreate the minting process to understand it, it still confuses me.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • Dan50
    Dan50 Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭
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    Thanks ShyLock, that is exactly my coin. Like they say, one picture ect. ect. ect. image
    Dan
  • cladking
    cladking Posts: 30,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If memory serves there are only 12 or 15 of these known. They were found early
    and there were some counterfeit DDO's to turn up about the same time. The Secret
    Service declared them all counterfeit and destroyed at least a few good ones before
    it was discovered that some were good.

    These are, unsurprisingly, tough in high grade.
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • 100proof1957
    100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
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    My Bad,
    Lets see if we can straighten this out as i believe it happened.
    the portrait was hubbed to the die with 1 hub
    the motto and date and liberty with another hub
    then the mint mark was stamped directly on the die

    is this correct ?
    image
  • pharmer
    pharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
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    One hub, two hubbings of die which turned slightly between hubbings, mintmark punched into die.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • Conder101
    Conder101 Posts: 10,536 ✭
    Options
    Proof,

    The hub has all of the design for the coin except the mintmark. In order to impress the design completely into the die it has to be forced into the die once, the die is annealed to soften it, and then the hub is forced into it a second time. If the hub and the die are not properly aligned when the die is put into the press for the second hubbing two images will be created in the die. After the second hubbing, the mintmark is punched into the die, it is hardened, cleaned, and put into production.
  • richbeat
    richbeat Posts: 2,288 ✭
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    And remember, what Conder is describing applies to the coin being discussed here--1969S. Mint mark application and hubbing techniques have changed since then. image

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