I don't see many unc so I'm not sure what they sell for. If I found a true unc. with nice eye appeal I'm be willing to pay it. The best person to ask would probably be sylvestius.
They're offering that 1859 tanner in MS64 at £250. Now, I have an 1845 and 1856 sixpence, both in PCGS MS65........Maybe they're now worth £350??? Nah!!!
Who'll make me an offer??
Seriously, true gem unc. and higher British Milled is really taking off. Anyone noticed that AHM is starting to sell their Brit inventory?
Edited to add: You can't really tell if that UNA has hairlines, etc., but unless their retouching the images, it's the best "63" I've ever seen. The frost on the devices looks flawless!! Anyway, I was gonna buy one but I think I'll save it for auto purchases over the next 15 years.....
I'd rather have an MS67 Jubilee fiver!!!
Also, that 1844 groat takes the "clash city" award....whoa, baby.
They are a section of Lockdales the auction house. Slabbed coins are catching on in the UK and prices are in some cases overtaking US prices. I think customers can relate to the grading after the variation of dealer grades!
Locksdales of Ipswich?This should explain their prices. I got a colorful 1872 shilling from Don, for about less than a third of what they're asking for their 1871 (same grade).
<< <i>They have some nice coins but they are very expensive. Text I thought they didn't like slabbed coins. >>
You thought right, see here... and i didn't even reply to that thread, cos i'm a slab moderate. I can see their uses but i don't like them cos i can't touch the coin and that's what the hobby is all about for me, holding history.
Not really. For a '58 sixer in BU with no haymarking i'd go for about £75 tops. They are quite common coins, not so much in BU i'll admit and thus you may decide that £94 is quantified in that case. If you want it go for it, but expect to sell it for less. But what's £30 or so over book when the coin is a gem that you like, or at least that's my personal opinion, i've knowingly bought coins over book price cos i just like the way it looks.
Even the one with haymarking is a nice coin but i don't mind haymarking all that much, i think it adds character.
<< <i>I would pass it appears to have a lot of haymarking on the obverse. >>
Not as much as many, i'd call it moderately haymarked. Some William III issues are almost 90% haymarked or more... even cutting through most of the design.
Haymarks are little indentations on the coin's surface, like flecks. (kinda looks like hay has been dragged across the surface)
I have no idea what causes it, i've asked dealers all over the place and every single one has come up with a different explanation of it. From rusted dies to hay being thrown in the cooling metal to burn off impurities.
1758 is the second most common date of the 1700s for both 6s and shillings, they were issued for more than a quarter of a century after the date they show. Keep your eyes out and you'll find a nicer one at a better price.
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
<< <i>I think customers can relate to the grading after the variation of dealer grades! >>
Could this be the Great Awakening?
If British collectors are no more assured and confident of their grading abilities than their American counterparts (regarding RAW coins), then maybe a shift is taking place toward TPGs for certification of not only the grade, but the integrity of the coin itself, i.e., otherwise cleaned, mistreated coins, regardless of grade will not be certified.
I quit wasting my time on eBay sometime ago because the so-called, raw "UNC." coins thusly described were really all over the map, and so few were really UNC. as to make searching for the proverbial needle far easier.
From what I have seen there are quite a few European dealers offering slabbed coins and even more of them who are co-listing their raw coins with both US and European grades. It reminds me a great deal of what happened when the grading companies first got started here in the US. I would have to say it is a sign of things to come. But only time will tell for certain.
<< <i>From what I have seen there are quite a few European dealers offering slabbed coins and even more of them who are co-listing their raw coins with both US and European grades. It reminds me a great deal of what happened when the grading companies first got started here in the US. I would have to say it is a sign of things to come. But only time will tell for certain. >>
I think GD is right, i think a time will come when slabbed coins are the norm in the UK. Why? Well because the dealers that matter and whom are in a position of considerable influence will make it so, all it means is that i'll just have to practice my cracking skills.
As it stands now i don't buy coins from dealers that slab, and i don't generally buy slabbed coins. I have bought one so far just too see what i thought of a coin in a slab. The conclusion was i don't like it.
I've ruined many proofs because i couldn't resist the urge to open the capsule and touch them... coins need handling.
I can't offer any insight into the British market, or really slabs in general since I've yet to own one (due to being a cheap bum rather than slabophobic). But in my few trips to shows back in Germany I noticed a few sellers were selling slabbed material. Usually there would only be one dealer or so with a large proportion of slabbed stuff. Though you'd find some who had a corner of one of their tables set up as a slab quarantine It seemed that most slabbed material in these cases were popular American issues, rather than native coins, which might say something interesting. As for the larger German market, I don't think slabs are coming like they seem to be in Britain. But it's apparent that in at least a few areas people are warming to the idea. Wait and see I guess...
I think it is a combination of a few factors spoon. One is there are more and more British and World coins being slabbed by the two main TPGs. Also, as coins prices get higher, the slab protects you somewhat from getting a fake or monkeyed with coin. Also, grading is more stable. I have seen some wickedly graded coins by Brit sellers on eBay.
DPOTD-3 'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
<< <i> So what do you guys think the cause is for the coming slab invasion in Britain? Could it be as simple as backlash against lousy internet sellers (ie, ebay)? Or is it a generational thing? Just evolution of market attitudes? >>
Yes, I think there is a backlash happening. For years many Brit sellers have gotten away with selling substandard material because there was scant difference in valuations, and because many collectors as well as dealers couldn't really ascertain minute grade differences. But then, why trouble yourself when there might only be a $20 difference between aEF and UNC. When this difference grows to $75, then the incentive grows for the shady dealer to "push" the otherwise nice gEF to a full-blown UNC. The buyer finds upon later attempting to sell or trade-up into a rising market that they are holding the infamous slider-unc. material, and they are not happy. Introducing the Judiciary; PCGS, etal. For all the TPGs shortcomings in work overloads and subsequent occassional inconsistencies in grading they will, at the end of the day, pass a fairer sentence than the Independent Seller.
If slabs become the offering du jour in the UK, it will be because the sellers have brought it upon themselves. When buyers are chasing few goods of superior quality and higher values, and they are not as educated as they quite frankly should be, the TPGs just naturally bubble to the top.
Why the price increases in UK material? IMHO, you can look no further than the booming housing market and the owners who have been freeing equities in these properties. As with all cycles though, I think that eventully the largest portion of these equities will be bled out, but by then the "slabs" will probably have gained a good foothold and recognition in the marketplace.
<< <i> A British Dealer selling certified coins... in pounds sterling... and I wonder how many where sold in the UK? >>
Actually, quite a few have been going back across the pond. Witness Spink and several other high profile UK types who were in LB buying most of Terner's "63" quality material, no matter the metal type.
I agree with Mac. At one time all my slabbed coins would travel back across the pond to the US, I have noticed that over the last few months more are being sold in the UK ( this is not restricted to UK coins! ). I have bought hundreds of raw coins on ebay and the grading ranges from conservative to ????. Most are sent to PCGS and ' so called ' unc has resulted in every thing from AU50 to MS69.
<< <i><< I would pass it appears to have a lot of haymarking on the obverse. >> >>
<< <i>Not as much as many, i'd call it moderately haymarked. Some William III issues are almost 90% haymarked or more... even cutting through most of the design. >>
I feel this coin has a lot of haymarking for a late issue George II, it just wouldn't be that hard to find one nicer.
What a fascinating thread. It does raise the issue of PCGS grading darkside coins (again) though. If this trend of British buyers wanting slabbed coins contiunes will there be a market for moderns, like the plethora of PR69DCAMs available in US coins and will there still be a disparity between lite and dark side when it comes to getting the all important 69 designation?
With a website and name of "certifiedgbcoins.com", it appears that Lockdale's thinks this is a long-term direction. I tend to agree, as I do with you all. Although I don't keep my coins in slabs for the sake of having them entombed, I do tend to use TPGs when it comes time to sell them. And buying a slabbed coin takes away a lot of anxiety if you're buying sight-unseen, especially from an unknown source on ebay (which I rarely do anyway). Slabbing makes coins more marketable, and I see more and more coins being treated this way in the future. I voiced this opinion here over 2 years ago, and it seems that time has flown by quickly because then, hardly any Darkside coins were being slabbed.
It's interesting to see the market develop. Or am I just getting old??
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
The 1758 shilling is fairly common and is available in high end circ grades with alittle effort. Look for a better example.
Haymarking is hard to explain, and I think it is described in either Coincraft or Spink. Haymarking can effect milled coins from the reign of Charles II to George III. It is very problematic for coins struck during the reign of James II.
The most interesting aspects of the potential rise of TPG in the UK is how problem coins will be graded and certain coins in high grade that are original will finally be appreciated for their true rarity.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>At what price point ought a coin be slabbed? >>
If slabbing would increase the immediate selling price by $50-75, then it's worth doing so. Two caveats; it should probably be a coin which is listed in Spinks at >$150, and it should be at least MS64, and preferably MS65+. Slabbing anything else (lower grades - MS62/3 down) in that price range would probably not have a significant impact on the selling, and would just cost you $16 and 3 months time.
For the average MS63 quality coin, I'd guess it makes sense at the $400-500 area since many people have been and will be easily fooled by an alleged MS63 (raw) coin which is, in fact, only AU58 in reality.
I'm not remotely thinking of selling my collection (95% raw) at this time, but another caution is that PCGS is just starting to come into this area as far as grading. I don't think they have yet defined or fine-tuned their grading parameters for British milled material.....they still have a learning curve to come up.....that said, now's the time for the skilled crack-out types to really examine anything British in a slab, especially copper. Why? Well, the prices spreads are generally narrow presently between 64 and 66, but they will not be for long. To paraphrase George Santayana, the certified market is "....doomed to repeat it." It will not be next year or maybe another three years, but within 10 years I'd bet that the MS66/67+ coins will be selling at very large multiples to the otherwise nice MS63/64 market.......
P.S. The new 2005 Spink is due out anytime and may well be available in the UK now......word is, big increases again.....I'm anxious to see the new copy.
One can never really tell for certain what a slabbed coin will go for. I sold this coin which has a Krause value of $40 or so in Unc. I truly believe if you ever plan to sell a coin, you should have it slabbed, even if it is only a $40-50 coin.
DPOTD-3 'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
Comments
09/07/2006
This one I am seriously considering is it a good price?
09/07/2006
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
09/07/2006
09/07/2006
it. The best person to ask would probably be sylvestius.
I sold that coin last year, Die #19, graded MS-63 in 2003.
Or is he located in the Channel Islands.
Got quoins?
They're offering that 1859 tanner in MS64 at £250. Now, I have an 1845 and 1856 sixpence, both in PCGS MS65........Maybe they're now worth £350??? Nah!!!
Who'll make me an offer??
Seriously, true gem unc. and higher British Milled is really taking off. Anyone noticed that AHM is starting to sell their Brit inventory?
Edited to add: You can't really tell if that UNA has hairlines, etc., but unless their retouching the images, it's the best "63" I've ever seen. The frost on the devices looks flawless!! Anyway, I was gonna buy one but I think I'll save it for auto purchases over the next 15 years.....
I'd rather have an MS67 Jubilee fiver!!!
Also, that 1844 groat takes the "clash city" award....whoa, baby.
Slabbed coins are catching on in the UK and prices are in some cases overtaking US prices.
I think customers can relate to the grading after the variation of dealer grades!
Web: www.tonyharmer.org
Locksdales of Ipswich?This should explain their prices. I got a colorful 1872 shilling from Don, for about less than a third of what they're asking for their 1871 (same grade).
DPOTD-1
<< <i>They have some nice coins but they are very expensive. Text I thought they didn't
like slabbed coins.
You thought right, see here... and i didn't even reply to that thread, cos i'm a slab moderate. I can see their uses but i don't like them cos i can't touch the coin and that's what the hobby is all about for me, holding history.
LINK
<< <i>Without the haymarking would £94 be ok? >>
Not really. For a '58 sixer in BU with no haymarking i'd go for about £75 tops. They are quite common coins, not so much in BU i'll admit and thus you may decide that £94 is quantified in that case. If you want it go for it, but expect to sell it for less. But what's £30 or so over book when the coin is a gem that you like, or at least that's my personal opinion, i've knowingly bought coins over book price cos i just like the way it looks.
Even the one with haymarking is a nice coin but i don't mind haymarking all that much, i think it adds character.
<< <i>I would pass it appears to have a lot of haymarking on the obverse. >>
Not as much as many, i'd call it moderately haymarked. Some William III issues are almost 90% haymarked or more... even cutting through most of the design.
09/07/2006
I have no idea what causes it, i've asked dealers all over the place and every single one has come up with a different explanation of it. From rusted dies to hay being thrown in the cooling metal to burn off impurities.
I don't think anyone knows for sure.
<< <i>I'm surprised they haven't run him out of the country.
Or is he located in the Channel Islands.
No but they've lost alot of regular serious customers because of it, if i had been buying coins from them i would have unsubscribed too.
I bet American collectors have bought most of those sold out half crowns. Either that or UK collectors who are going to crack them.
I have one slabbed coin and it's going to be cracked out eventually, but i don't want to damage the coin.
<< <i>I got a colorful 1872 shilling from Don, for about less than a third of what they're asking for their 1871 (same grade >>
hmmm . . . . we' ve gotta talk about that Dimitri
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>Without the haymarking would £94 be ok? >>
1758 is the second most common date of the 1700s for both 6s and shillings, they were issued for more than a quarter of a century after the date they show. Keep your eyes out and you'll find a nicer one at a better price.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>I think customers can relate to the grading after the variation of dealer grades! >>
Could this be the Great Awakening?
If British collectors are no more assured and confident of their grading abilities than their American counterparts (regarding RAW coins), then maybe a shift is taking place toward TPGs for certification of not only the grade, but the integrity of the coin itself, i.e., otherwise cleaned, mistreated coins, regardless of grade will not be certified.
I quit wasting my time on eBay sometime ago because the so-called, raw "UNC." coins thusly described were really all over the map, and so few were really UNC. as to make searching for the proverbial needle far easier.
<< <i>From what I have seen there are quite a few European dealers offering slabbed coins and even more of them who are co-listing their raw coins with both US and European grades. It reminds me a great deal of what happened when the grading companies first got started here in the US. I would have to say it is a sign of things to come. But only time will tell for certain. >>
I think GD is right, i think a time will come when slabbed coins are the norm in the UK. Why? Well because the dealers that matter and whom are in a position of considerable influence will make it so, all it means is that i'll just have to practice my cracking skills.
As it stands now i don't buy coins from dealers that slab, and i don't generally buy slabbed coins. I have bought one so far just too see what i thought of a coin in a slab. The conclusion was i don't like it.
I've ruined many proofs because i couldn't resist the urge to open the capsule and touch them... coins need handling.
I can't offer any insight into the British market, or really slabs in general since I've yet to own one (due to being a cheap bum rather than slabophobic). But in my few trips to shows back in Germany I noticed a few sellers were selling slabbed material. Usually there would only be one dealer or so with a large proportion of slabbed stuff. Though you'd find some who had a corner of one of their tables set up as a slab quarantine
My wantlist & references
Could it be as simple as backlash against lousy internet sellers (ie, ebay)? Or is it a generational thing? Just evolution of market attitudes?
My wantlist & references
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>Note to aethelred. That's and who's both have commas. >>
Not when I'm rushing!
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>I agree with the above, it is a mature idea whos time has come. >>
<< <i>Note to aethelred. That's and who's both have commas. >>
Huh?
Note to ajaan:
He didn't use the word that's, he should've used the word whose, and those aren't commas, they're apostrophes.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree with the above, it is a mature idea whos time has come. >>
<< <i>Note to aethelred. That's and who's both have commas. >>
Huh?
Note to ajaan:
He didn't use the word that's, he should've used the word whose, and those aren't commas, they're apostrophes.
I would have corrected him but I was not sure I could spell apost....apostroph....darn!
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>He used thats in another thread. >>
Thats just not true!
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i> So what do you guys think the cause is for the coming slab invasion in Britain?
Could it be as simple as backlash against lousy internet sellers (ie, ebay)? Or is it a generational thing? Just evolution of market attitudes? >>
Yes, I think there is a backlash happening. For years many Brit sellers have gotten away with selling substandard material because there was scant difference in valuations, and because many collectors as well as dealers couldn't really ascertain minute grade differences. But then, why trouble yourself when there might only be a $20 difference between aEF and UNC. When this difference grows to $75, then the incentive grows for the shady dealer to "push" the otherwise nice gEF to a full-blown UNC. The buyer finds upon later attempting to sell or trade-up into a rising market that they are holding the infamous slider-unc. material, and they are not happy. Introducing the Judiciary; PCGS, etal. For all the TPGs shortcomings in work overloads and subsequent occassional inconsistencies in grading they will, at the end of the day, pass a fairer sentence than the Independent Seller.
If slabs become the offering du jour in the UK, it will be because the sellers have brought it upon themselves. When buyers are chasing few goods of superior quality and higher values, and they are not as educated as they quite frankly should be, the TPGs just naturally bubble to the top.
Why the price increases in UK material? IMHO, you can look no further than the booming housing market and the owners who have been freeing equities in these properties. As with all cycles though, I think that eventully the largest portion of these equities will be bled out, but by then the "slabs" will probably have gained a good foothold and recognition in the marketplace.
<< <i> A British Dealer selling certified coins... in pounds sterling... and I wonder how many where sold in the UK? >>
Actually, quite a few have been going back across the pond. Witness Spink and several other high profile UK types who were in LB buying most of Terner's "63" quality material, no matter the metal type.
Well, again, there's my 8 farthings, FWIW.
At one time all my slabbed coins would travel back across the pond to the US, I have noticed that over the last few months more are being sold in the UK ( this is not restricted to UK coins! ).
I have bought hundreds of raw coins on ebay and the grading ranges from conservative to ????. Most are sent to PCGS and ' so called ' unc has resulted in every thing from AU50 to MS69.
Web: www.tonyharmer.org
<< <i><< I would pass it appears to have a lot of haymarking on the obverse. >> >>
<< <i>Not as much as many, i'd call it moderately haymarked. Some William III issues are almost 90% haymarked or more... even cutting through most of the design. >>
I feel this coin has a lot of haymarking for a late issue George II, it just wouldn't be that hard to find one nicer.
Dr J
My omnicoin collection (or how my coin photography has progressed)
It's interesting to see the market develop. Or am I just getting old??
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Haymarking is hard to explain, and I think it is described in either Coincraft or Spink. Haymarking can effect milled coins from the reign of Charles II to George III. It is very problematic for coins struck during the reign of James II.
The most interesting aspects of the potential rise of TPG in the UK is how problem coins will be graded and certain coins in high grade that are original will finally be appreciated for their true rarity.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I've slabbed several coins of late but have not seen them obtain these great prices that others claim.
At what price point ought a coin be slabbed?
<< <i>At what price point ought a coin be slabbed? >>
If slabbing would increase the immediate selling price by $50-75, then it's worth doing so. Two caveats; it should probably be a coin which is listed in Spinks at >$150, and it should be at least MS64, and preferably MS65+. Slabbing anything else (lower grades - MS62/3 down) in that price range would probably not have a significant impact on the selling, and would just cost you $16 and 3 months time.
For the average MS63 quality coin, I'd guess it makes sense at the $400-500 area since many people have been and will be easily fooled by an alleged MS63 (raw) coin which is, in fact, only AU58 in reality.
I'm not remotely thinking of selling my collection (95% raw) at this time, but another caution is that PCGS is just starting to come into this area as far as grading. I don't think they have yet defined or fine-tuned their grading parameters for British milled material.....they still have a learning curve to come up.....that said, now's the time for the skilled crack-out types to really examine anything British in a slab, especially copper. Why? Well, the prices spreads are generally narrow presently between 64 and 66, but they will not be for long. To paraphrase George Santayana, the certified market is "....doomed to repeat it." It will not be next year or maybe another three years, but within 10 years I'd bet that the MS66/67+ coins will be selling at very large multiples to the otherwise nice MS63/64 market.......
P.S. The new 2005 Spink is due out anytime and may well be available in the UK now......word is, big increases again.....I'm anxious to see the new copy.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don