Football All-Time NFL Defense...Set Request

JasP24 · April 8, 2004 10:55PM

I'm looking at submitting an All-Time NFL Defense for an addition to the Registry. I would like to get a consensus from the football collectors here in the forum of who should be included.

The questions we need to answer are:
1- Approx. how many cards to include in the set?
2- Which players to include?
3- Which card of each player should be included?

JLBroker · April 8, 2004 11:12PM

Jason:

Here's who I would include:

DBs
Herb Adderley
Lem Barney
Mel Blount
Willie Brown
Jack Christiansen
Darrell Green
Mike Haynes
Ken Houston
Night Train Lane
Ronnie Lott
Deion Sanders
Emlen Tunnell
Larry Wilson
Rod Woodson

LBs
Chuck Bednarik
Bobby Bell
Dick Butkus
Bill George
Jack Ham
Ted Hendricks
Sam Huff
Jack Lambert
Willie Lanier
Ray Nitschke
Joe Schmidt
Mike Singletary
Lawrence Taylor
Ray Lewis ??

DLs
Buck Buchanan
Willie Davis
Joe Greene
LC Greenwood
Deacon Jones
Bob Lilly
Gino Marchetti
Merlin Olsen
Alan Page
Bruce Smith
Randy White
Carl Eller ??

Just my 2 cents. Most would be the Topps card.

Jeff Barker
Reggie White

JLBroker · April 8, 2004 11:13PM

oops!

Forgot Reggie White for the DLs

Jeff

JasP24 · April 8, 2004 11:23PM

Here's what I have as definites:

DLs
Art Donovan
Joe Greene
Deacon Jones
Bob Lilly
Gino Marchetti
Leo Nomellini
Merlin Olsen
Alan Page
Bruce Smith
Reggie White

LBs
Chuck Bednarik
Dick Butkus
Jack Ham
Ted Hendricks
Jack Lambert
Ray Lewis
Ray Nitschke
Junior Seau
Mike Singletary
Lawrence Taylor

DBs
Mel Blount
Willie Brown
Ken Houston
Paul Krause
Night Train Lane
Ronnie Lott
Deion Sanders
Emlen Tunnell
Larry Wilson
Rod Woodson

I think we should try to limit the set to ONLY the best of the best. I have listed my top 10 at each.

thefootballcardstore · April 8, 2004 11:55PM

The list looks very complete, everytime I think of one it's there. The only one that keeps popping up with me is Lee Roy Selmon.
Him and maybe a couple of 85 Bears. Jeremy

Kid4hof03 · April 9, 2004 12:02AM

OK, I bleed blue and silver so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that Randy White and Mel Renfro should be included.

Abe

1954 · April 9, 2004 12:27AM

Dion Primetime Sanders would need to be on the

Fabfrank · April 9, 2004 12:41AM

Jasp24's list was pretty concise. I think these players should be considered also:

DL: C. Eller
J. Marshall
R. White (The Manster)
E. (Too Tall) Jones
C. Haley
Lee Roy Selmon
L. Alzado

LB: S. Huff
H. Carson
D. Thomas

DB: M. Haynes
L. Hayes
D. Green
S. Atwater
G. Fencik
J. Tatum
R. Harrison
K. Houston (12 Pro Bowls??)

JasP24 · April 9, 2004 12:45AM

Deion is on both lists.

Randy White is very close. Same with Renfro. For me, I am trying to keep the set as only the absolute top dogs. So I did a top 10. I don't think I could take anyone off my current lists for Randy White or Renfro. If the decision is to expand the set, then definitely. I think there should be a line drawn as far as size of the set goes. Not sure what that line is, and i am flexible. I just went with 10 per because I think they are sure things.

Dent ,Hampton, and Selmon are all possibilities at DL. Singletary is already on the list from 85 Bears. If I am trying to keep the list at 10 though, I dont see anyone I would delete for Dent, Hampton, or Selmon. Great players, but not quite top 10 of all time to me.

Jason

JasP24 · April 9, 2004 12:52AM

FabFrank,

Ken Houston is on my list. hes a lock in my opinion. Huff and Derrick Thomas were both on my initial list of 11-15 at each position before I paired it down to 10. Harry Carson wasn't quite there.

Eller, Marshall, Jones and Selmon i have all about the same level. Top 20-25, but not top 10. Randy White is in that 11-15 range at DL, and I would definitely consider him. Alzado wasn't even on my radar. Great player, but I don't think he'll ever make the Hall of Fame. He was only a dominant player for a couple of seasons.

Mike Haynes was another guy i had on the list before shrinking it down. The rest of those guys were all fine players, but i think what we have to do is figure out how small we want to keep the set.

The All-Time Rushers set does not include guys like Joe Perry and Jim Taylor. Both were great, but not quite high enough on the list to make the cutoff. My initial thought is to try and keep it around 10 per position, give or take one or two high end additions(like a Randy White).

thefootballcardstore · April 9, 2004 12:58AM

Sounds like we have some other players that people would like to see make the list.
In your first set of questions you asked how big the set should be, how about 12 each making it 36?
Would still be a small set - so would it be rookies?
I too like Hayes, Huff and Marshall. Not so sure about Haley (although I was a big fan of his), Renfro, Sanders.

Jeremy

AlanAllen · April 9, 2004 12:58AM

You read my mind

. When I have time later today I'll look over the list, but I think 30 should be the absolute maximum.

Joe

mrchris74 · April 9, 2004 1:02AM

Lee Roy Selmon definitely needs to be on that list. What I would hate to see is some undeserving current player on that list. Having Kurt Warner on the all-time QBs set is like putting Vanilla Ice in the rap music hall of fame.

The list is already getting pretty big though, I don't know how much interest the set would draw with so many cards (and so few collectors that appreciate defense). Didn't the NFL recently put out an all-time team list? Maybe it would be better to have an 11 (or 22 if there are second teams) card set and then put all-time DL, LB, DB in separate sets so it doesn't become too overwhelming. At any rate I'd be willing to help with the excel sheets if needed, especially with the LBs since I already have a Nitschke PSA 9 (well actually its a 6 but I like to look at it upside down).

BTW, while we're on this subject, has anyone ever thought of doing ESPN's sportscentury top 100 list? I like it better than Joe O's 200 because it is more focused on the athletes than the cards themselves. Although I admit finding a seabiscuit rookie would be tough.

Chris

Southsider · April 9, 2004 1:06AM

I agree that some tough choices have to be made. It's a little harder to compare defensive players because they don't have the stats like offensive players to rank them objectively.
The top 10 for each category does seem like a logical stopping point. Once you add in that one guy who almost makes the top 10, then you can make a case for another, and so on.

As much as I'd love to see some more Bears in there, I think Hampton and Dent just barely miss. Although a good case can be made for Dent with 137 1/2 career sacks and as Superbowl XX MVP, I also don't see who could be taken off to fit him in. IMO, Dent was just behind White and Smith in his own era, so he wasn't really THE dominant force in his playing days.

JasP24 · April 9, 2004 1:13AM

Im up for going to 36 as a MAXIMUM. But we must remember that future players will be added. 30 would already make it a pretty large set.

I agree about Warner. Not sure who requested that he be added, but it was before my Set Registry time..lol..I brought the Warner issue up to BJ last year and I was told that they will not delete a card once added. So adding current players, they need too be Hall of Famers if their career ended today(Ray Lewis is an example). Every defensive guy from the NFL All-Time Team list is on my list.

As far as submitting the Excel spredsheet for this set is concerned, I have previously requested the the All-Time Team sets, Team of the Decade Sets and the Super Bowl MVP sets. I think, at this point, BJ trusts my excel spredsheets and the sets i request usually get added fairly quickly. But if someone else wants to do it, im fine with that.

If I were adding 2 more to each list, they would be:

DL
Randy White
LeRoy Selmon

LBs
Sam Huff
Willie Lanier

DBs
Mike Haynes
Mel Renfro

Southsider · April 9, 2004 1:17AM

Just for comparisons sake, I found The Sporting News all-time list:

Defensive linemen (11): Buck Buchanan, Willie Davis, Joe Greene, Deacon Jones, Bob Lilly, Gino Marchetti, Merlin Olsen, Alan Page, Bruce Smith, Randy White, Reggie White.

Linebackers (15): Chuck Bednarik*, Bobby Bell, Dick Butkus, Bill George, Jack Ham, Mel Hein*, Ted Hendricks, Sam Huff, Jack Lambert, Willie Lanier, Bronko Nagurski*, Ray Nitschke, Joe Schmidt, Mike Singletary, Lawrence Taylor.

Defensive backs (18): Herb Adderley, Lem Barney, Sammy Baugh*, Mel Blount, Willie Brown, Jack Christiansen, Red Grange*, Darrell Green, Mike Haynes, Ken Houston, Don Hutson*, Night Train Lane, Ronnie Lott, Sid Luckman*, Deion Sanders, Emlen Tunnell, Larry Wilson, Rod Woodson.

Fabfrank · April 9, 2004 3:55AM

Sorry Jason. I missed K. Houston in your original list.
There are so many deserving guys. If I had to cull my list I would knock it down to:
DL:
R. White
C. Eller
J. Marshall

LB:
S. Huff
D. Thomas

DB:
M. Haynes
D. Green
J. Tatum

Any modern players (R. Harrison, C. Haley, etc.) can be added once they make the Hall of Fame.

thefootballcardstore · April 9, 2004 8:56AM

That list of 36 sounds just right for some reason. You've got my vote!

(But will it be rookies again??? I suppose it should if that is how the other All-Time Great sets are.)

Jeremy

JasP24 · April 9, 2004 9:20AM

Of course...Rookies only...lol

Anyone else have a take? a couple of guys want 30, a couple want 36...Any opinions will be taken into consideration.

Jason

AlanAllen · April 9, 2004 9:25AM

I know I originally said 30, but there are some guys I want on there and I can't think of anyone to knock off

. 36 I think would be OK if one of the additions is Darrell Green.

Joe

Fabfrank · April 9, 2004 11:58AM

Let's start with 36 and see how the set evolves.

SKINSFAN · April 9, 2004 12:09PM

GOT to have #28 D.green 10 YEARS NFL FASTEST FAST 20+ YEARS SAME TEAM NFL.PRO BOWLS,SUPER BOWLS. And not just because he is a skin.
Think maybe Buoniconti not sure if i saw him mentioned

JasP24 · April 10, 2004 12:53AM

Ok, how does this look for 36...

DLs
Art Donovan
Joe Greene
Deacon Jones
Bob Lilly
Gino Marchetti
Leo Nomellini
Merlin Olsen
Alan Page
LeRoy Selmon
Bruce Smith
Reggie White
Randy White

LBs
Chuck Bednarik
Dick Butkus
Jack Ham
Ted Hendricks
Sam Huff
Jack Lambert
Ray Lewis
Ray Nitschke
Junior Seau
Mike Singletary
Lawrence Taylor
Derrick Thomas

DBs
Mel Blount
Willie Brown
Darrell Green
Mike Haynes
Ken Houston
Paul Krause
Night Train Lane
Ronnie Lott
Mel Renfro
Deion Sanders
Emlen Tunnell
Rod Woodson

If the majority is in agreement on this, the only other issue is which cards to use. They are all pretty cut and dry with the exception of Reggie White. Do we want the 1986 Topps, or the 1984 Topps USFL. Once we solve this final issue, I will get this set loaded to an excel spreadsheet and send the request to BJ.

Kid4hof03 · April 10, 2004 2:49AM

I think the final list looks great. As for the Reggie White card, I would prefer the USFL card, but I'm not nearly as informed as those of you already building other all time sets.

I now have to say that you guys have gotten me hooked. I've collected high grade Cowboys for a few years, especially Dorsett, Staubach and Danny White but I'm going to throw my hat into the running backs, QB's and defense sets. I've learned a lot from the football contingent here and also love the fun that seems to be had by the entire group. Thanks for pulling me in!

Abe

JasP24 · April 10, 2004 2:59AM

Welcome to the club Abe...Its got to be the fastest growing segment of the Registry. At this point, your still getting in just above ground level, as most prices are still very cheap in comparison to baseball.

I hope to see you jump onto the All-Time Cowboys set too...Can't go wrong with guys like Staubach and Dorsett either.

Jason

Kid4hof03 · April 10, 2004 3:06AM

Thanks Jason. I actually have never really thought about the all time Cowboys set, but it makes perfect sense, maybe I'll jump in there also. If I'm going to go, might as well go all out!

AlanAllen · April 10, 2004 3:52AM

Great list! I like it just how it is. As for Reggie, I suggest the USFL card to be consistent with the rest of the position sets (i.e. the QB set uses Young and Kelly's USFL cards).

Joe

AlanAllen · April 10, 2004 4:29AM

Reccomended composition and weighting (sorry if I stole your thunder Jason, I needed something to do on my lunch break

):

Card..............................................................SMR 8..Weight
1948 LEAF CHUCK BEDNARIK........................$1,350.10
1948 LEAF LEO NOMELLINI...........................$1,300.9.5
1952 BOWMAN LARGE ART DONOVAN...........$650....8
1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS................$550...7
1952 BOWMAN LARGE GINO MARCHETTI.......$375....6.5
1963 TOPPS BOB LILLY..................................$275...6
1951 BOWMAN EMLEN TUNNELL....................$175...5
1963 TOPPS RAY NITSCHKE...........................$165...5
1965 TOPPS WILLIE BROWN..........................$145...5
1971 TOPPS JOE GREENE...............................$115...4
1959 TOPPS SAM HUFF...................................$110...4
1963 TOPPS DAVID (DEACON) JONES.............$110...4
1957 TOPPS DICK (NIGHT TRAIN) LANE..........$100...4
1965 PHILADELPHIA MEL RENFRO..................$95.....3.5
1964 PHILADELPHIA MERLIN OLSEN...............$75.....3
1973 TOPPS JACK HAM...................................$60.....2.5
1976 TOPPS JACK LAMBERT............................$55.....2.5
1970 TOPPS ALAN PAGE.................................$50.....2.5
1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL KRAUSE.................$45.....2
1976 TOPPS RANDY WHITE.............................$45.....2
1972 TOPPS TED HENDRICKS..........................$40....2
1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE...................$37....2
1971 TOPPS KEN HOUSTON............................$35....2
1977 TOPPS LEE ROY SELMON........................$18....1.5
1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR.....................$18....1.5
1996 BOWMAN'S BEST RAY LEWIS...................$15....1.5
1982 TOPPS RONNIE LOTT..............................$14....1.5
1977 TOPPS MIKE HAYNES..............................$11....1.5
1986 TOPPS BRUCE SMITH..............................$10....1.5
1983 TOPPS MIKE SINGLETARY........................$8......1
1984 TOPPS DARRELL GREEN...........................$8......1
1975 TOPPS MEL BLOUNT.................................$7......1.5
1989 SCORE DEION SANDERS..........................$5......1
1989 SCORE DERRICK THOMAS........................$4......1
1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL JUNIOR SEAU......$3......1
1989 SCORE ROD WOODSON...........................$2......1

even though Mel Blount is unlisted in SMR, he sells for a premium and deserves to be weighted higher than 1.

Joe

JasP24 · April 10, 2004 5:16AM

Yeah, that's pretty much what I already had with a couple of exceptions. Before the Blount mysteriously disappeared from the SMR is was listed at $30 in PSA 8. Also, my weights are a little different.

Gotta remember that there will be future additions to this set. Although I doubt there will be any valued over $1350. So I have it set up like this:

$1-$25...........1
$26-$50.........1.5
$51-$75.........2
$76-$100.......2.5
$101-$125.....3
$126-$150.....3.5
$151-$200.....4
$201-$250.....4.5
$251-$300.....5
$301-$400.....5.5
$401-$500.....6
$501-$600.....6.5
$601-$700......7
$701-$800......7.5
$801-$900......8
$901-$1000....8.5
$1001-$1150...9
$1151-$1300...9.5
$1301+...........10

I'll get this submitted to BJ later today. It sounds like we are in agreement that the Reggie White card should be the 1984 USFL card.

Jason

AlanAllen · April 10, 2004 6:51AM

That's cool, I have no problem with your weights. I kinda wish we could break this into three sets but I doubt there would be enough interest to support it. I really like the linebackers but some of the backs and linemen aren't too high on my priority list. Anyway, it's a great set as it is and I hope it gets loaded quickly.

Joe

Fabfrank · April 10, 2004 8:08AM

Great job guys. I agree with the lists and the weighting. Maybe after a year or so they can separate out the postions into their own all-time great sets. That way only the top guys will be in the ALL-Defense set and the just miss guys can make their individual position sets.

sixdart · April 11, 2004 6:40AM

Here is the list of NFL HOF'ers by position ...

Hall of Famers by Position

... just to finalize the list?

How about an All-Time Offensive Lineman list as well?

Fabfrank · April 11, 2004 7:20AM

How about an All-Time Offensive Lineman list as well

If it's football, I'm for it

achtey · April 11, 2004 9:52AM

I don't care who else is in it but you have to include REGGIE WHITE!! I think 198 sacks make him a worthy selection. Don't worry, I'm not biased either.

Josh

JasP24 · April 11, 2004 12:34PM

Josh, Reggie is on the list...1984 USFL RC..

Sixdart, we are trying to put together a limited "Best of the Best" set, much like the other All-Time Sets...Every defensive HOF won't make the cut and we are also putting guys on the list who havent yet made the Hall and some who are still active players. Along the same lines as the QB, WR, RB sets...

The final 36 player set was submitted to PSA this evening. Should be up and running by the end of the month hopefully...

I'm not really up for an O line set, but would be happy to add some input if someone else wants to put one together.

Jason

JasP24 · April 14, 2004 9:54AM

Set has already been loaded...Gotta be a record..

And is exactly as requested.

Jason

AlanAllen · April 14, 2004 10:01AM

Cool. I'm not sure the weighting is right, but it's not off by much. I continue to be confused why they state that their weighting is based on SMR for a PSA 8, and then they don't follow the rules themselves. Bruce Smith (weight 1.5) books for $10, while Ray Lewis (weight 1) books for $15. Go figure.

Joe

JasP24 · April 14, 2004 10:10AM

Yeah, that is weird...I talked to BJ about adjusting weights when we had the HOF RC set updated. The conclusion was that I will send in corrections to any set weights once a year based on price changes. I planned on doing this around October of every year, so I'm sure I will catch this one when I do my updates then..

Jason

Football All-Time NFL Defense...Set Request

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