Graders Gone Wild?

MrRookie · March 30, 2004 12:09PM

what is this?

felix76 · March 30, 2004 12:13PM

It is either a scam or one hell of a breakthrough.

Lothar52 · March 30, 2004 12:30PM

jrinck · March 30, 2004 1:04PM

Without seeing the video, I can't comment with any certainty. But please be aware that TV "news" folks are not exactly always honest. They seemed to have an agenda in this case, so who's to say they didn't switch the fake ball for a real one to make it look like Spence was so blatantly wrong?

Remember when Dateline NBC purposely rigged that truck to catch fire in order to prove to the world how easily they can blow up in an accident? And we're talking NBC here, a network with infinitely more ethics than Fox News, although that isn't really saying much.

BigKidAtHeart · March 30, 2004 1:12PM

I suspect that this auction will not have a long
"shelf-life" so I have copied it for posterity.
(email or pm me if you want me to send you a
copy of the jpg file...)

xbaggypants · March 30, 2004 1:17PM

Sorry, I thought this was the thread for "Girls Gone Wild"

WinPitcher · March 30, 2004 1:43PM

TV news folks can and do manipulate stories, I know this as a matter of fact as it was done to me in 1986 during the Garpage Pail Kid craze. So I take whatever they say with a LARGE GRAIN OF SALT

mikeschmidt · March 30, 2004 2:11PM

<< TV news folks can and do manipulate stories, I know this as a matter of fact as it was done to me in 1986 during the Garpage Pail Kid craze. So I take whatever they say with a LARGE GRAIN OF SALT >>

Okay - storytime!

Tipem · March 30, 2004 7:18PM

WinPitcher,

I second Mikeschmidt!!!

Story Time.

Vic

MrRookie · March 30, 2004 9:26PM

<< TV news folks can and do manipulate stories, I know this as a matter of fact as it was done to me in 1986 during the Garpage Pail Kid craze. >>

do tell

WinPitcher · March 30, 2004 10:27PM

well, during that craze the local elementary school principle had gotten fed up with the kids bringing the cards to school and banned them. CBS news got wind of that and entered our town like bees to honey. At the school it was found that many of the kids had purchased thr cards from me at my hobby shop. (Many other stores were also selling them) to make a long story short they made me out to be some ruthless card shark that was taking advantage of children when nothing could have been further from the truth. I aways opened wax so kids could get singles for whatever sets they were building and never took advantage of them if an item was percieved to be hot. I can say that it was the best advertising I ever had though, as for weeks following that segment my shop was flooded with customers who not only wanted GPK but models and comics etc. The short of this is they can and do leave certain things out when they are doing a "story" The newspapers have also been known to do this.

edited to add: apologies in advance to any and all media people on the boards, I do not need another "well crooks go where the money is" type reply resentment diatribe from anyone!

DaBigHurt · March 30, 2004 10:59PM

Like many others, I've always wondered how reliable these so called autograph experts were. I for one would love to see some sort of an expose on the whole card grading/autograph authenticating business.

HartlandMan · March 30, 2004 11:34PM

I'd like to hear Mr. Spences take on this. After all, he's affiliated with this place, right? Here's a great venue for him to set the record straight...

CON40 · March 30, 2004 11:42PM

Like many others, I've always wondered how reliable these so called autograph experts were

I agree. Has anyone here ever sent in an autograph they received in person only to have it returned as not authentic? I just don't see how these guys can be more than 75% accurate.

I don't submit to PSA/DNA. The only autos I have for the most part are ones I have gotten in person. I now they are real and I don't plan to sell them. But, I am also afraid that they would mistakenly not authenticate them if I did submit them. That would really bother me after watching a player sign it himself!

Howitallbegan · March 30, 2004 11:59PM

Here is the sellers motivation (his last positive feedback) from ebay item 2204032823

--- Do you want to feel confident that the autographs you own are authentic? Obviously the major problem in the autograph industry today is the forgery problem. Can you be sure that the item you own or are about to purchase is authentic? Now three of the most skilled autograph authorities in the country have joined together to form a new autograph authentication company entitled Professional Autograph Authentication Services. We are offering autograph collectors on ebay a chance to have their items examined for an extremely low introductory price. Professional Autograph Authentication Services consists of Richard Simon, Steve Koschal and Mike Frost. The three authenticators represent a combined 75 years of full time experience in the autograph business. Mr. Frost has been in the autograph business for 20 years. He and Mr. Koschal are co-founders of the International Autograph Collectors Club/Dealers Alliance, better known as the IACC-DA. He is a veteran autograph collector and dealer having Mickey Mantle and Joe DiMaggio as in store guests at his N.Y.C. business in 1985. He worked with Mickey Mantle for nine years. He is extremely knowledgable in the field of celebrity autographs and modern day sports autographs. His files include numerous examplars in these fields of collecting. Mr. Koschal has been in the autograph business for over 35 years. Mr. Koschal is the author of over 200 published articles on the subject of autograph collecting and is the author of numerous published signature studies. He maintains one of the largest autograph reference libraries in the world. He was selected by SCD to teach an Autograph Educational Course during the 2002 Retailers Conference. He is well known in the autograph industry for working with law enforcement and his help has resulted in arrests of suspected forgers. He has just testified for the Federal Government in a major forgery case in San Diego. Mr. Simon has been in the autograph business for close to 20 years. He has been declared an expert witness on autograph identification by a Nassau County, NY Court. He has worked with two different government agencies on identifying forgeries in the market, including the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs and the Nassau County, NY District Attorney's office. He has authenticated autographs for a number of different auction firms and has amassed a very large exemplar file of vintage sports autographs. Professional Autograph Authentication Services is the ONLY company in the field of autograph authentication that has had two of its experts testify in criminal cases involving autograph forgery. No other company in this field can make this statement. We are now offering our services to ebay autograph collectors at a special introductory rate. Take advantage of this low price now. This authentication fee is available only on ebay, and is lower than our regularly advertised introductory fee. This offer applies to items with one autograph only. If your item has more than one autograph, we will quote you a discounted, only for ebay, price.(( PLEASE E-MAIL US FOR EXACT PRICE FOR INSURANCE AND SHIPPING OF EACH ITEM

joker73 · March 31, 2004 2:49AM

Geez, it can't be that simple, can it?

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 3:15AM

<< I agree. Has anyone here ever sent in an autograph they received in person only to have it returned as not authentic? >>

as well as having a card I pulled from a pack returned as trimmed

qualitycards · March 31, 2004 3:24AM

Jim Spence is one of the top autograph experts in the industry, his expertise is 2nd to none, is he 100% no!
Is PSA, SGC, GAI 100% in the grades they assign cards, no!
But I still would rather have the security of Mr. Spence viewing my signed pieces (I sent him a batch last week as a matter of fact).
And if 2 Babe Ruth signed photos were sitting side by side at a dealers table, 1 w/ the PSA/DNA pedigree and the other without, I quickly would choose the PSA/DNA version. Who wouldn't? Just like seeing a '33 Goudey card in ungraded and graded fashion for the same grade...jay

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 3:58AM

If you guys thought the first video was a riot, wait till you see the sequel co-starring Tommy Lee!

goodriddance189 · March 31, 2004 4:12AM

whatever happened to Mark Jordan?

Dhjacks · March 31, 2004 4:40AM

I think he got accepted to North Carolina and eventually played some pro ball.....

Wait..his name might have been Mike though.

WinPitcher · March 31, 2004 5:35AM

I too only want auto's that I have gotten in person or from a family member that did.......other then that I have no need for them.

my auto collection consists of

1949 red sox team ball father was a western union messenger and the team signed it for him as he stood in the car they were in

Joe D at a dinky donuts

Harmon Killebrew At a local card show (nicest guy in the world btw)

Whitey Ford At a local card show

Freeman McNiel after a football game another nice guy

the Joe D prolly a fake as I got it from a sleazy guy who was so stupid he forged Babe Ruth's auto with a felt pen in the late 80z early 90z he did a couple of years for that.

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 10:05AM

dinky donuts?

does it have any creme filling on it to prove it's authenticity?

KallMaloneSay · March 31, 2004 10:43AM

Marc Goldman of AAU told me his issues with Spence also. Apparently since Spence and he have been heated rivals for some years now, AAU decided to buy 100 PSA/DNA authenticated items and list them on ebay without the Spence seal of approval noted, but only the AAU certification. AAU then had someone pay for the Spence's "eyeball test" on every single item, and as a result he deemed that 88 of the 100 were probably fakes. I can't prove if any of this is true, as it came from Goldman's mouth, and he's a slimeball in my book, but it sounds legit. I guess there's a huge lawsuit against Spence as a result. Like I said, don't hold me to this as being fact, I'm just playing the role of a high school gossip queen here, adding fuel to the fire, Jason

qualitycards · March 31, 2004 10:50AM

<< he's a slimeball in my book, but it sounds legit >>

KMS - This statement kinda contradicts itself...jay

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 12:59PM

what reasons do you have to say he is a slimeball

BigKidAtHeart · March 31, 2004 1:17PM

<< I suspect that this auction will not have a long
"shelf-life" so I have copied it for posterity.
(email or pm me if you want me to send you a
copy of the jpg file...)

>>

TOLD YA!
It is Gone,Gone,Gone!

(still have the whole thing saved as a jpg file
so let me know if it is needed.)

(FYI... the seller's ebay id was WHOODEE)

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 1:27PM

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 1:29PM

I am in no way affiliated with the seller nor do I agree with him. I simply thought this would be a good topic of discussion to discuss memorabilia and the backstabbing that goes on, not point fingers at any one person or company. I hope that this thread does not offend anyone.

BigKidAtHeart · March 31, 2004 1:58PM

here is the response I got from the seller about where it went or if the tape was still for sale...

psa/dna and jimmy spence had this item removed for no reason... they have stings in with ebay,,,, they do not want the truth out,,,,,,,,,I will sell you the tape for $19.00 ,if you are still interested......meanwhile I am going to try to fight ebay......thanks jimmy,,,,,,,,,Wwwhoodee@aol.com

schr1st · March 31, 2004 2:43PM

He can fight it all he wants, but he'll lose. Unless he paid FOX NEWS (or whomever did that story) for distribution rights, he can't make duplicates of the tape and sell them. If PSA doesn't shut the acutions down, FOX should.

<< here is the response I got from the seller about where it went or if the tape was still for sale...

psa/dna and jimmy spence had this item removed for no reason... they have stings in with ebay,,,, they do not want the truth out,,,,,,,,,I will sell you the tape for $19.00 ,if you are still interested......meanwhile I am going to try to fight ebay......thanks jimmy,,,,,,,,,Wwwhoodee@aol.com >>

MrRookie · March 31, 2004 10:14PM

is it going to be broadcast on TV? seems like it would if it's a TV news story

Ironmanfan · March 31, 2004 11:25PM

I'm not sure if this is the story they are referring to, but in Dec. 2001, the local FOX affiliate in Philadelphia (WXTF) did a "consumer" story on "autograph authenicators" and to make a long story short, they had some real balls, but someone in their art department carefully traced over an image of a real Mike Schmidt autograph on the sweet spot of a ball and submitted it to 3 or 4 "authenicators" (including Jimmy Spence). Jimmy Spence authenicated it as a genuine signature (William Tell was the only one not to pass it). While I understand that this is a highly subjective business and that no one is perfect, my thoughts were that if Jimmy Spence couldn't determine whether or not a Mike Schmidt ball was legit, how could you ever trust him to authenicate a Connie Mack, Babe Ruth, etc. I still have a copy of this tape, though I'm curious if another story was done recently.

BobS · April 1, 2004 12:02AM

<< Has anyone here ever sent in an autograph they received in person only to have it returned as not authentic? >>

YES!!!

I have a signed Big Mac ball I got in person, the real deal. Had it in the closet for years. Last year I thought of selling it on the Bay. Sent the ball into PSA/DNA. It came back "un-able to authenticate" Man, that ticked me off. It cost almost $150 with shipping and insurance, for them to tell me the ball I had signed IN PERSON was not authentic. The ball has since been relocated back in the closet

helionaut · April 1, 2004 10:17AM

Some years ago, the local TV news did a similar story and took an "expert" to some card shops around town and he pointed out items he said were fake. The shop I go to most often was on there. He pointed out a Troy Aikman football that they had for some time. When I went in next time, the ball was gone. A little while later, it was back on the shelf. The dealer said the ball had come from UD Authenticated as an incentive for ordering more cases of football or something. So I guess TV news wants you to think that it's impossible for their experts to be wrong, and that they know more than UDA, I guess. I'm sure the owner gave him a nice argument about it, too, and that didn't make it on the air.

I had an "expert" take a look at a Frank Thomas card I have that Frank signed for me, opening day, Arlington, 1998. I didn't pay for this, he was set up at a mall show, selling some cards but he also claimed to be able to provide authentication. He said my Frank was fake. Now, Frank had already signed a few dozen autos and was off in his own mental world, and he did sign it off-balance on his knee, and it doesn't look exactly like other Frank autos I've got from cards inserted in packs, but still, I know the "expert" was 100% wrong.

While waiting in my dentist's office a little while ago I was forced to read a golf magazine (it was either that or Cat Fancier). There was an article on autographs and their authentication. The columnist had 3 experts look at various things, and on no item did all 3 experts agree. I wish I could recall who they were, or what the magazine was, but one guy was a 25-year veteran dealer, and one guy worked for an auction house. They differed on things like from what the signature looked like, to how the item was signed (i.e. Ben Crenshaw won't sign across his body in a photo), to what the item was (i.e. Tiger won't sign pin flags). Interesting little details like that are nice to know, like how Nolan Ryan always makes the "a" in Ryan obvious, but who's to know for sure that this little scribble of ink was absolutely, or absolutely not, made by this or that guy? This is especially bothersome to me with common, long-ago players. Are there really experts in Dick Radatz, Al Benton, and Herb Crompton autos? How many specimens could one person have examined?

gemint · April 1, 2004 10:51AM

"Unable to authenticate" doesn't mean it's fake. It just means the signature isn't clear enough to make an assessment. A friend gave me a Mac ball he got autographed in person in the early 90s. He wanted me to submit it for authentication so he could sell it. I advised him not to waste his money because it was signed in marker and the lines were so thick, they most likely wouldn't take a chance on it. I'm not saying your ball had a poor quality signature on it, but this is just an example of how a legitimate ball could be rejected.

MrRookie · April 1, 2004 11:40PM

I agree that there's no way for anyone to be 100% accurate in authenticating autographs.

Like the person who was talking about Frank Thomas, a lot of athletes are sloppy when they sign at games, etc. and the autos look fake. I got a couple Dale Earnhardt Sr. autos at a fair about 6-7 years ago and the whole time he was signing them he was turned around talking to a guy behind him. He would look down just long enough to see that he had the marker on the item and then turn around and continue talking while he signed it. All of the autos I got from him look like a kid took a Sharpie and just made about 5 circles on top of each other. There's no way in the world anyone would wager $1 on those being real but I saw him sign them myself and even have pictures of him signing them.

And as for fakes, if so-and-so athlete can sign his name that way there's no reason why I or anyone else can't practice a little and sign his name that way. Signatures are not fingerprints or DNA, they can be duplicated by other people.

WinPitcher · April 2, 2004 12:46AM

MEMO to Danny Doo Doo just do not use a sharpie when doing Babe Ruth again.............it could land you back in the slammer!

brumbach · April 2, 2004 8:36AM

Are there really experts in Dick Radatz, Al Benton, and Herb Crompton autos? How many specimens could one person have examined?

Actually, depending upon the amount of autos of such players available, one can become just as good at spotting authentic looking autographs of common players as they can for more prominent players. This is especially true for guys that played in the 60's and earlier as they almost always signed their entire names and not the loopy chicken-scratch that today's players make. It does become more difficult for guys who's lives were cut short or were just non-signers but they aren't the norm. You only need to see a few authentic examples of guys like Mike Garcia, Wally Westlake, or Hank Edwards before you have a good idea of what they look like.

Personally, much like getting straight cards graded, I view the idea of PSA/DNA slabbing and autograph authentication more of a validation of what I already know than just stumbling blindly into something. Between my knowledge and the dealers I buy from that I feel I can trust the most, PSA/DNA is the final step and seal of approval. As has been said in earlier posts, autograph authentication isn't an exact science and I wouldn't expect perfection in such an arena. But that's just me though, I can be goofy like that sometimes.

Graders Gone Wild?

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