Question about Pius Vatican medal-many pics.

JRocco · March 11, 2004 1:07PM

Months ago I asked a question about a Vatican Pius 1X medal and your help was awesome. Now I have another question. This is a massive piece, 80mm bronze, 8mm thick, with a unique 3-d reverse. The medalists are Poletti and Bianchi.I was asked by a very knowledgeable and respected board member about some markings on it and I don't have an answer. Please help if you can. I will quote his question as it is so eloquently asked. "a concern about what appears to be solder spots along the rim split. He is under the assumption that the piece is actually a galvano (two shell pieces, obv and rev, put together and filled with lead). What leads him to believe this is the fact that when the rim ding occurred, it appears it was with enough force to split the galvano casing which required that the split be repaired with solder. The only indicator that this might NOT be a galvano is the fact that split should be centered along the rim, and in this case it isn't. Could it be a planchet flaw instead, I don't know for sure." Any ideas? I have no idea. Let me post a few images of the medal and the area in question and if I can supply any further info to help answer this question please feel free to ask. Thank you in advance.

If I may add 1 observation- The reverse recedes into the medal past the half-way point so I would think it would be impossible to be soldered at the half-way point.

Stork · March 11, 2004 3:06PM

I can't add anything useful, but I love that medal...I can't remember if was yours or someone elses that I saw over here way back when, but it is one of the top 3 reasons I fell into the dark!

Are you selling (she asks hopefully)??

JRocco · March 11, 2004 3:08PM

Hi Stork. Yes it was mine and to answer your question - more than likely - yes.

JRocco · March 13, 2004 1:37PM

ttt - Anyone??? Does this piece come 2 different ways or is this medal made this way period? Given the quality of this piece in hand I could not imagine it being a "knockoff". I can't think of many medals any finer than this. Does anyone have more insight into this 1854 bronze piece.

spoon · March 14, 2004 2:59AM

Try catching elverno, he's knowledgable on medal design in general

I haven't noticed Askari about lately

I've probably said it before, but that's an awesome medal

[ sorry I can't offer any info, this is more a ttt post ]

Compa · March 14, 2004 3:38AM

THAT is one very impressive hunk of metal!

Compa · March 14, 2004 3:40AM

Or is it ... THOSE are two very impressive hunks of metal!

theboz11 · March 14, 2004 9:50PM

Beautiful piece,,,ttt for elverno comment if available

JRocco · March 15, 2004 9:45AM

ttt- for elverno. My question is- was this piece made in 2 different methods. Or is it made one way. What would be the reason for making this 2 different ways??? Who would be the maker of the 2 different ways? Was this a single piece of medal that was then cut in half for added stability? Is this piece normally made in 2 halves then put together or made in a single piece and then cut ????

elverno · March 17, 2004 3:35AM

Sorry for missing the question. I'll check my copy of Forrer tonight to see if there's any additional information about this medal.

I suspect that it was only made the way you see it. It's difficult to imagine how the high relief would be managed in any other manner than striking the two sides separately.

I'm not certain but I believe this is called a "galvano". The nearest that I've personally seen are repousses and cliches; but these are uniface. Electrotypes came about shortly after my period of interest and used a similar method of joining two separately struck pieces together. The most famous is Pistrucci's Battle of Waterloo medal. It was too large to actually be struck by the equipment of the time, it would be a challenge today at 135mm! So the only "originals" are electrotypes and gutta percha.

The edge knock on your spectacular medal is truly unfortunate. It probably would still sell well to someone who specializes in Papal medals but these guys are less common than serious Napoleonic collectors (thank God!). I'll try to add something later if I find anything out.

JRocco · March 17, 2004 4:15AM

You are a gentleman Vern. Thank you for taking the time and adding your expertise. I owe you one and will make good someday.

elverno · March 17, 2004 11:44AM

No problems.

Ignazio Bianchi (Forrer, I, p. 185) Italian Medallist and Papal Mint-engraver, worked in Rome between 1848 and 1869. Known for his coinage and a large number of medals with the bust of Pius IX.

"One of his finest productions is a large and heavy medal in silver, representing on reverse the interior of St. John Lateran's Church, a master-piece of the art of die-sinking."

It's probably significant that Forrer doesn't mention this piece in another metal or as a galvano. That would indicate that this may be a copy. Though if it is it probably is from the original dies (just a personal opinion). Couldn't find anything about a Poletti...

JRocco · March 17, 2004 2:23PM

Thank you again Vern for your input. I want to find out as much about this piece as I can. I will try and see if I can gather any more info that might help.

Askari · March 21, 2004 12:55PM

Yes, I'm afraid I have been gone "a-yeti" far too long, but I hope that will change soon. Anyhow, I don't really have any more comments to add to what I originally wrote JRocco about this superb piece of medallic art.

The main reasons that discourage me from judging this piece as a joined pair of galvanos are that 1) the "seam" does not appear to go all the way around, 2) there are actually three such "streaks" (one quite close to the rim), and 3) the crudeness of what is apparently a soldering of the main "seam". I tend to suspect that whatever incident produced the edge dent also produced some serious gouges that were inexpertly "repaired".

JRocco · March 21, 2004 2:45PM

Thank you for your input Askari. Let me offer that if you or Vern would like me to send you this medal to inspect, I would be more than willing (shipping to and from at my expense of course ). Just PM me and let me know. I just want to know as much as I can about this beautiful piece. Thanks again.

Askari · March 22, 2004 2:31AM

I'd be happy to, but I'll yield first option to Vern since he's more knowledgeable than I about Vatican medals and probably has better reference resources.

elverno · March 22, 2004 3:18AM

O Sorceror of the Darkside!

I actually was going to say the same thing about you. My expertise, as little as it is, extends almost exclusively to the 26 years of the French Revolution and First Empire. During this time Papal medals were limited in output and invariably covered by the standard numismatic literature. Because of this I haven't felt the need to acquire references on Papal medals per se.

I admire the quality of this particular piece and am amazed that it was produced when it was, with the technology in the state it was in. That comment is true whether it is an original, a "galvano" (a type I have no personal experience with BTW) or some other method was used to create it. This is one of those unfortunate medals that may suffer from the realities of "supply and demand". As beautiful as it is the number of serious Papal medal collectors can probably be counted on the number of digits you happen to have on your body. If they all own one then you're left looking for a devout Catholic who wants a piece of art. sigh...

I have a medal I collected several years ago on eBay for $25. It's one of three known, it is of high artistic style and is nevertheless probably not worth what I paid for it. It's a death medal of a relatively obscure British offical of the Napoleonic era who commanded the Tower of London at his death in 1817. I thought it was cool but that doesn't change the fact that no one else is particularly interested.

So, Sir Askari, feel free if you wish. I doubt I could add to my rather dull and depressing note above...

Askari · March 22, 2004 4:41AM

I guess I'm swayed by your inexorable logic, Vern ... well, sort of.

I do think there must be more serious Vatican medal collectors out there than that, though, simply based on the number of folks seriously outbidding me on the occasional Vatican medal I've bid on of this artistic quality. Anyhoo, I'll PM JR.

wybrit · March 22, 2004 1:12PM

I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but I am very impressed by the amazing 3-D effect of the medal. The photography is outstanding as well!

JRocco · March 22, 2004 1:41PM

The reverse 3-D effect is truly amazing. Look at it if you just tilt it slightly --- you can walk into it.

And the detail on the obverse isn't too shabby either--

JRocco · March 25, 2004 4:10AM

Its now on its way to you Askari, Thanks again.

Askari · March 27, 2004 1:17PM

It arrived in today's mail -- what a gorgeous piece!!!

It is a regular medal, not a galvano. In fact, at nearly 82mm, it's properly called a 'medallion' (72mm or more). I need to check it again when I have better light, but the main "seam" appears to me to be what we might call "flashing". Large medals weren't always made with a collar and some metal would "leak" into the joining (or there might even be a little overlap if the dies weren't aligned properly), which would be filed down later. In several places, the remains of this can be seen where it wasn't completely "erased". I've not handled electrotypes enough to really be familiar with them, but I think this is an original medal. It seems too light to be copper deposited on lead and the seams appear to "disappear" too well in those areas where it isn't easily seen -- nor do the various dents and scratches reveal any different underlying metal.

The darkest streak is the one least "erased" and "solder spot" is just a little rough metal. The reason it is off-center with respect to the edge is to allow for the recessed depth of the gorgeous reverse design which takes it past the center of the medal. The other streaks closer and not parallel to the rim are simply discoloration due to impurities in the planchet. There are a number of these showing up as spots on the medal, including a large one on the edge at 7:00 with respect to the obverse, and each of these have raised nuclei from oxidation. (BTW John, the broader area of this spot seems to be some kind of dirt. It can be removed and acetone might do the job. In fact, the whole medal could use a proper acetone dip to remove the accumulated grease from handling.)

There are a couple of "island-shaped" depressions below the pope's arm that look like dings at first glance that aren't. They appear to be original to the medal and due to impurities in the planchet. In fact, there's some light porosity in the area beneath the bust.

Like I said, I need to look at it in proper daylight, which departed these environs a few hours ago. I'll write more after I look at it then (probably Sunday afternoon).

mrearlygold · April 24, 2005 7:23AM

Wow wow wow!

Wanna sell this?????????

Tom

Question about Pius Vatican medal-many pics.

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