Anybody know where I can find a Davenport book re. old thalers prior to 1600?

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 6:49AM

My reference library consists of Krause back to 1601, Spink for the Brit stuff, and antiquated Friedberg catalog for the gold (with sky-high 1980 bullion prices), and Sear for the Greek and Roman ancients.

My coverage is weak in the middle- don't have any reference on medieval and early milled coinage (except for the British coins listed in Spink). I particularly would like to have Davenport, I guess, since that is what I hear referenced when one is discussing thalers, right?

newbiecollector · December 12, 2003 7:01AM

Rob,
What is the full title? I will do a little searching.

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 7:05AM

I'm afraid I don't know.

If I did, maybe I would have found one by now!

newbiecollector · December 12, 2003 7:23AM

. my first search with just Davenport book brought up a bunch of high schools.........

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 7:37AM

Thanks, but I already have a high school diploma.

Never finished college, though, so if you find a Davenport College with free degrees, lemme know...

CIVITAS · December 12, 2003 7:42AM

If you're just looking for basic coverage, go for Bachtell's "World Dollars: 1477-1877 Pictorial Guide" and the supplement.

Davenport's coverage is divided up into a number of different books, each covering a different country/region and time period. There is a book for European Crowns 1484-1600 (but that doesn't include German States). Then there is another book for German Thalers from the same period.

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 7:56AM

<< <i>If you're just looking for basic coverage, go for Bachtell's "World Dollars: 1477-1877 Pictorial Guide" and the supplement >>

Depends on what one means by "basic". Is it a priceguide, or just a pictorial guide? Presumably, the "basic" means it's just the most common issues, but I guess that's OK by me- I don't plan on specializing. I would like to be able to quote well-known references for variety numbers, though, if people collect such things by variety.

<< <i>Davenport's coverage is divided up into a number of different books, each covering a different country/region and time period. There is a book for European Crowns 1484-1600 (but that doesn't include German States). Then there is another book for German Thalers from the same period. >>

Thank you. I had a feeling you were gonna be the answer man on this one, O Wise Civitas. I think I will want both of those.
Any ideas on where to find them? Would Brooklyn Gallery carry them? Or should I just wait until FUN? (Gonna be there, by any chance?)

CIVITAS · December 12, 2003 8:26AM

Actually, the Bachtell is more of a price guide than the Davenports would be. But, it was printed in the 1970s and the prices are absolutely irrelevant now. You could pick up Krause's "Standard Price Guide to World Crowns and Thalers 1484-1968 as catalogued by John S. Davenport" There are two editions that I'm aware of. The first was 1980(?) and the second edition was 1984. Both were produced during a peak market for thalers. The first edition is the one I have. You can basically cut the catalogue price in half for most common coins and you'll have a fair current market price for the most common issues. Of course the rarest issues you can't put a price on anyway. However, it is still way out of date. The other drawback to the Krause guide is that it is SORELY lacking in photos and indices. For the most part, you can't use it unless you already know what you have. Catch-22 huh?

Bachtell also includes some coins that Davenport/Krause does not. So it's really a toss up for the most part.

I would do some price shopping on http://used.addall.com and see what's available. I'm sure someone at FUN will have a copy. Unfortunately, no I won't be there. Might make it to NYINC though.

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 8:51AM

Thanks a bunch. I knew you'd come through with that info.

BTW, I have some Roman denarii (low grade Republican and better-grade Imperial) in my inventory, and have had Sear less than a year (just added two Sear Greek volumes to my library, too). In other words, I've branched out. I have a fair amount of numismatic experience but am rather green on the ancient and medieval coins, those Darkest of Darkside pieces! So far my experience as a collector of them has been limited to one or two odd pieces, and I am not terribly confident of my ability to jump into dealer status yet (though I really want to.)

Would you be willing to advise me on some of them periodically? I price them by converting the Sear price to US dollars, and that seems a bit high. A lot high in some cases.

And what about submitting some of them to ICG? I'm no big fan of ICG, but I've heard that ANACS is out of the grading game on ancients, so they're the only game in town, right? And, if I did slab the coins, would they bring closer to the catalog value, or would that be a waste of time and money? I know purists don't really care for slabs, but for sharp EF-ish denarii that I cherrypicked for $20-30, maybe (?)

cacheman · December 12, 2003 9:13AM

Davenport has two from his set of eight that deal with 16th century talers: European Crowns 1484-1600 (Vol.VII), and German Talers 1500-1600, (Vol. VIII).)

CIVITAS · December 12, 2003 10:53AM

<< <i>Would you be willing to advise me on some of them periodically? >>

Hmm, what was that tale about the tree that gave the woodsman a branch for his axe head?

Sure, I'll be happy to field the occassional question. I will tell you this about slabbed ancients, it depends. If you want to sell to serious ancient collectors, don't do it. They will usually sell at a discount because they have to go through the trouble of breaking it out of the slab. If you want to take out a full page ad in a periodical for U.S. coinage and sell to people who don't know any better or don't trust the experts, then the slab will come in handy. Of course these people are usually willing and able to pay well above market but usually aren't happy when they try to sell to an ancients dealer. Beyond that, I don't know much about slabbed prices. I've only ever bought ONE slabbed ancient, and we had to return it because it was extensively tooled, altered and smoothed (none of which was mentioned on the slab). The auction company claimed ignorance, but they should have known better. They were second or third tier though. No reputable auction house sells ancients in slabs as the slab prevents proper examination, authentication and weighing.

Don't bother converting Sear's Prices into dollars. First of all, those prices are for a very strict british VF. Additionally, the prices in Sear's Greek are from 1974. Those in the most recent COMPLETE edition are form 1988. I haven't seen his Millenium edition at all, so I can't comment as to their validity. Prices on ancients depend very much on eye appeal. A coin with EF detail, but poor centering may sell for less than a VF with excellent centering. An EF coin with porosity may sell for less than a VF with good metal. Patina comes into play with bronzes. Toning wth silver. "Collection" or "Cabinet" toning is very desirable on ancient silver coins, as it usually means the coin has some provenance above ground, plus it's attractive. The best advice I can give is to just keep a finger on the pulse of the market. Watch auction realizations and pay attention to fixed price lists. Unfortunately, it takes a lot more work than just looking at a greysheet or something to that effect. Sometimes you can't find an example of a coin you are pricing that has sold anytime recently. I had to hunt down auction catalogs from 1993 to find a price for a late roman silver piece of Jovian that we sold a few months back. It was just that scarce. There are others that don't have price records for decades. (None that we have though.

)

Just some thoughts. I'm always happy to answer questions about ancients and medieval when I can. If I can't, my partner probably can as he did three years at CNG. And if between the two of us we don't have an answer, we know who to ask.

lordmarcovan · December 12, 2003 12:20PM

As my clientele are mostly lower-to-middle budget collectors of primarily U.S. coins, maybe there's something to the slab thing, then. I doubt I will ever become a specialist in the field, as I prefer the "little bit of everything" approach, at least right now.

I'm familiar with British VF vis-a-vis American EF and so on, but I do grade my ancients with the American Sheldon scale for consistency's sake- as my inventory is probably 2/3 Liteside material, most of my coins have grades like "VF35" on them, and if I suddenly threw out "gVF" or "FDC", it would knock people off-balance.

I would like to dabble in the ancient and medieval market a little, though, just because it's interesting. Maybe I'll do it with the understanding that I am NOT a specialist. I do like to buy coins already attributed by people who are. One of the funny things about learning a particular field is the seeming paradox that the more you learn, the more you realize how truly ignorant you still are.

Thanks again. I have browsed y'all website a little, and enjoy it.

CIVITAS · December 12, 2003 1:07PM

For the U.S. guys a slab or two will probably do you good. A $75.00 denarius in a slab may be a $100.00 denarius to the U.S. collectors who just want "a really old coin." To a specialist, probably a $50.00 coin since they have to bust it out and there may be an edge problem not visible while the coin is in the slab. It's all relative. The markets for ancients vary widely. Coins are worth more in one venue than they are in others. I guess that's the same for all coins though. It's just more noticeable with ancients since the markets are so specialized.

I know what you mean about introduction of the British scale to litesiders. It can take a while for them to catch on. Some never do. Some don't want to. Fortunately I do both sides, so I can translate.

All you can do is give it a whirl. You're right, once you get deeper into it, you'll find so much you don't have a clue about. I've been collecting coins for 15+ years (ancients for 7) and there's so much I don't know (but I hope to learn).

Conder101 · December 13, 2003 4:42AM

www.half.com has 11 copies of the 1991 edition of Large Size Silver Coins of the World 16th-19th century available at prices ranging from $30 to $50.

Half.com listings

Still working on finding the other individual Davenport books German Thalers 1500-1600, European Crowns 1484 - 1600 and German Secular Thalers 1600 - 1700

This site has the 1985 edition of European Crowns 1484 - 1600 for 22.31 euros and German Secular Thalers 1600 - 1700 1976 edition for 44.62 euros (these were in stock as of 10/30/03)
Willem van Alsenoy

That will have to do for now.

lordmarcovan · December 13, 2003 5:23AM

Thank you, Conder. I knew if Civitas didn't come through with some info, you would be the other choice. Having a roadmap on where to go really helps. I appreciate it.

JamminJ · December 13, 2003 6:43AM

Hi LordM,

I've run into the same problem with coinage before 1600. To attempt to remedy the situation I currently have these three Davenport books on loan from the ANA's library:

German Talers 1500-1600
European Crowns 1484-1600
Silver Gulden 1559-1763

None of these include prices (just as well as they're decades old) but have a little blurb on each coin issuing authority, pictures of each coin where available, and a short description of each including dates and legend translations. Overall not a bed reference, but without pricing info I'm not sure if its worth the money to buy.

Another potential source for these books is Karl Stephens. Good luck!

-JamminJ

Anybody know where I can find a Davenport book re. old thalers prior to 1600?

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