Kirk Menczer Collection Sale Part 2 (Mexican Republic Minor Reales)
pruebas
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Stacks Bowers held the Kirk Menczer Collection Sale Part 2 yesterday and today via online auction. Part 2 was the Reales portion of the collection. Part 1, the decimals, were sold last October (2025).
As per the last single-owner collection sale I attended (Bruun in March 2026), the majority of the lots (80-90% in this case) were purchased by one floor bidder using at least 4 bidder numbers. While I was not physically present at today's sale, I presume this bidder was the same person as the Bruun bidder who purchased 90% of that sale.
The last big collection of Mexican Republic minors was in March 2011, so over 15 years have elapsed since that sale. (There was a smaller sale of Mexican Republic minors since 2011 when Rick Ponterio sold his personal collection, but nothing on this scale.)
The differences in prices over the last 15 years is amazing. There are now a few whales back in the field and prices are up, particularly for the rare stuff, but still not as high as the heyday in the 1980s-90s when many folks were forming DAM collections. Despite the high prices, I still don't feel Mexican minors are a profitable endeavor. Challenging, yes. Profitable, no. Menczer must have been working on the collection for 30-40 years. It surely kept him busy, and his heirs will be getting a large check, but I'm sure he would done better financially elsewhere.
As I’m predominantly a pattern collector, there wasn't much for me. I did pick up this lot which neither NGC nor Stacks Bowers identified as a pattern. I believe this to be an uncatalogued Paris Mint pattern (KM-Pn42 var silver), indicated by the assayer's initials and the medal rotation. While the coin is not UNC, it matches my UNC white metal example perfectly. My hypothesis is that the silver patterns were just thrown into circulation as what else would they do with them. Why melt them? (Maybe a mint official took it as a free sample to be spent?) None of the other Paris patterns were struck in silver. Only white metal (for the silver denominations) and brass (for the gold denominations). Had this had a coin rotation, I might think it was struck in Durango.
NGC called it AU55, but from the photos it appears to be a details coin to me. Once I receive it I will send it to our hosts for a proper attribution and grade.
Anybody win anything?
Comments
I'd net grade your pictured coin if I understand your reason for saying it should details.
I remember the 2011 sale. I was somewhat interested in buying one or more 4R which used to be a series I was interested in at the time but was laid off from my job immediately preceding it.
I own one 4R, an NGC MS-61 Go-PM. At anything close to the price the 1848 from the same mint sold, I'd be a seller not a buyer. I see better values for coins which I think are comparably scarce or scarcer, but they aren't from Mexico.
Many of these minors are scarce or rare as date/MM combinations, but I attribute this substantially to the large number of mints striking it. I don't recall mintages for anything other than 8R, but many of these have to be quite low. Not really that rare as a type, though there aren't that many nice ones despite the assigned grade.
Not only are the mintages fairly low (especially in the smaller mints), but the minors were heavily used by the population and just aren’t available nice. Most are heavily circulated and details graded. So finding “collectible” grades is quite tough.
“I believe this to be an uncatalogued Paris Mint pattern (KM-Pn42 var silver), indicated by the assayer's initials and the medal rotation. While the coin is not UNC, it matches my UNC white metal example perfectly. “
That is really cool, great find!
There was definitely one or more floor bidders snapping up most of the nice coins. I have a small type collection of 2r to go along with the gold minors, so I had wanted a cap and rays 2r for type. (1861 is a hoard date with most of the high grade pieces, so I preferred a different date)
It was tough going, but I won the 1827 in 66. It’s a scarcer early date in quite high grade (only 7-8 ms66 for the series, not counting 1861) so I was happy to win it. I’m a little surprised the floor bidder allowed it tbh.
Great coin. Congratulations!
I was actually following that coin, but only had a token pre-bid on it since it wasn’t a priority. For some reason there are a few examples of very high grade early coins available (witness my 1829 Go 4E in 65), whereas a lot of the later dated coins don’t have any high grade examples known. These make great type coins.
Congrats on your purchase. Awesome coin!
Curious as to why you’re thinking details grade? Old cleaning? Pics are always tough but I’m personally not seeing anything that I wouldn’t at least consider “market acceptable” all day long.
I like it.
I think the profitability of collecting these coins can and probably will change. With the combination of next generation (AI assisted) reference books spelling out the rarity of the coins, and much cheaper grading fees and the optionality of plastic allowed by customer held grading machines, I can imagine something of a gold rush of new collectors flocking to the field. Not just for Mexican, of course. There are opportunities like this in many, many areas of numismatics, not to mention other types of collectibles. You and I may not be young enough to see it all play out, but it’s coming.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
When I used to discuss this subject with South Africa based collectors, I'd tell them their sentiments would have a much higher chance of occurring with type collecting which to my knowledge isn't practiced at all there. ZAR and Union coinage is usually proportionately a lot more common than colonial or republic Latin America, but there is still a drastic supply shortage of eye appealing or even decent looking coins for a collector base of any size. Type collecting allocates the supply across a larger collector base who can then buy coins they actually want. Concurrently, a low number of collectors like me or this auction buyer inadvertently hoarding a noticeable to abnormal proportion of the supply (of any coin or series) has the opposite effect.
There were some attractive coins featured in the sale… it was an opportunity for those that participated.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I was an underbidder on that coin Scuba. Congrats!
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot
I picked up 16 total coins in the auction and when floor bidder 3759 hit the auction block against me, I lost every lot. There was floor bidder 325 and one bidder (something like 7633 ) you didn't really win against either.
So truth be known I got my days wrong. I made a spreadsheet of 226 coins to bid on and ranked them. I thought day 1 started Wednesday and when I realized it on Tuesday, I was in the Zacatecas section of 1/2 reales. Most everything I got was 1 reales with a couple 1/2 and 2 reales. I was still happy with what I got and seeing the prices made me pretty happy for my collection but sad I couldn't buy more. I had acquired a lot of Bidask's coins over the years.
I've learned a tremendous from you guys over the years so keep posting your comments and thoughts and Thanks to the wisdom in here. For me, I'll never be an expert in this game but sure do enjoy collecting and having fun.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot
Do people actually think like that? I mean, I’ve never met a collector who has chosen to collect more common coins because he wants to make sure that other collectors have a better chance to buy the rare ones.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Are you dealing with typical collectors, even from among those who can afford a wide enough variety of options? Most collectors by necessity have to collect coins I'd describe as common or at least not scarce due to availability.
The South African collectors I communicated with demonstrated little interest in completing sets or series, completing anything actually. They were or seemed mostly interested in trying to buy the better-quality coins even if they couldn't complete anything. Now, their buying and posting also frequently demonstrated more interest in money than collecting, but the overwhelming percentage of collectors trying to complete most denominations of Union coinage will have a collection of widely differing quality with much of it not particularly attractive or marketable. I don't believe collectors generally buy coins they don't find appealing, no matter how scarce. There is a stronger cultural preference for ZAR, it's easier to complete, and there are a higher proportion of decent looking coins, so it's somewhat different.
I also don't think that most US collectors really care about buying actually scarce or rare coinage, or else so many common US coins (which is most of it actually) wouldn't sell for such inflated prices due to minor quality differences, much less label numbers on plastic holders which US collecting calls scarce or rare.
There is also the psychology of those who seek completion. It's my inference (only) that most collectors won't bother if they can't find what they want. Somewhat easier now vs. pre-internet but I still infer it's typical. I'm not like this and I know others here aren't, but that's what I see from posting on coin forums for 20 years. They don't or may not want it to be too easy, but not that difficult either. Aside from marketability, this mindset apparently partly explains newer specialization practices (strike designations, toning, "lowball" collecting) along with various matched sets. I don't collect by specialization (not even die variety) and don't match how my coins look either. The coins are difficult enough to buy generically.
I’ve been dealing with collectors, investors and dealers at all levels for the past 50 years. At first, locally. Then nationally, and for the past 30+ years, internationally. So I have a pretty good idea how this works. That said, my only exposure to the South African market has been talking to and bidding against dealers in South African coins, and all of their attention (and mine) has been on the high end of the market. My impression is that it’s mostly an investor driven market, and that it has had some serious highs and lows over the past 30 years. I really have no knowledge of the lower end of the SA market, except that nobody I know has ever cared about the second rate material. Anything more you can share to enlighten me would be more than welcome!
As for the US market, there’s plenty of demand for everything, at all levels of the market. In other words, whatever it is, somebody always cares. We could talk forever about that, but this is a world coin forum…
Edited to add pics of a piece I was hoping to bring home from my current trip. Sadly, I was unsuccessful.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I won 9 lots and here is one where I find the R/B in REPUBLICA more interesting than the "10D" without "s".
Looks more like a details coin to me, but I didn't care as a floor bidder made me pay dearly for it.
Here are some I landed. I am pleased with them but most of the really nice stuff with original skin I was outbid on.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot
@ncsuwolf74 Those are really nice. I thought about trying for one of the nicer 1/2 and 1 reals also for a denomination set but decided to keep it only to the 2 reales.
@Abuelo?
@ncsuwolf74 All great looking coins. The Durango is interesting. Nice overdate and the G looks larger.
I really planned to bid more of the 1/2 reales and wanted to land a key coin such as the 1867 ho 1/2 or even that 1844 ca 1/2 real. Unfortunately I didn’t arrive until the 1847 Zs om and I lost that one lol. I thought with the 1 real coins I won that I would land some more of the 2 reales or 4 reales. IMO they were bid more heavy so only won 2 the second day.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot
Does anybody know what happened to this coin? It's an oddball and exactly what I was looking for, except I don't know what it is.
@pruebas Very interesting coin, and I like your hypothesis. Crazy to think how that coin survived circulation.
@scubafuel Your 1827 2R is amazing. I watched it go to the moon. If you were to get just one 2R, this is it.
This is a fantastic coin dripping with character. Great work, and congratulations.
I forgot to answer your question. To me, the high points look "roughed up," almost like a parking lot damaged coin.
Plus the surfaces have an "environmental damage" look to them, not hard, smooth surfaces of a normally worn coin.
You may remember, I found another of these circulated patterns in a Mexican auction in 2019, which PCGS graded SP35. While I do appreciate that the new example is higher-graded, it may not have the most eye appeal.
Here is my 2019 find:
BTW, my notes show that the SP35 coin has a 150 degree rotation and the AU55 has a 0 degree rotation. Something I need to investigate.