Double Struck Off-Center Mexico ND TH Assayer Ferdinand VII 8 Reales

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AngryDragon
AngryDragon Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
edited March 2, 2026 2:37PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

This showed up at the coin shop today. What do you think?




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  • JohnnyCache
    JohnnyCache Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2026 7:36PM
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    I'm confused how that could physically happen during the minting process for the type.

    @TwoKopeiki wouldn't the collar that imparts the edge design keep the planchet from moving that far out?

    Not sure that collar is the correct term but you get my drift, Castaing Machine

  • MasonG
    MasonG Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The edge design was applied in a separate operation before striking.

  • threefifty
    threefifty Posts: 194 ✭✭✭
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    I will take a stab at it. The coins were edged first, using the Castaing machine, then struck in the screw press. No collar involved. I can remember one other wacky error of the same sort, it was an early Guadalajara.

    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8728957

    With the weight being spot on and the edge appearing correct, my thought is that this one is genuine, perhaps harshly cleaned. Hope to hear the opinions of @TwoKopeiki and @realeswatcher.

  • TwoKopeiki
    TwoKopeiki Posts: 9,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2026 11:49AM
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    Neat coin. Rare, if real. While double strikes are pretty common, I've only seen a couple of portrait off-center double strikes this drastic. The coiner only had a few seconds to clear the struck coin off the anvil die before the hammer die came down again. Also, quality control at the mint was very high and examples like these almost never made it out of the mint. I think 1809 was one of the highest production years for portraits, so it makes sense that if anything was missed, it would be during the early armored bust series.

    Dies look ok, edge looks ok-ish. Would be great to see the full edge images.

    In any case, this coin definitely needs to be submitted. Let me know if you decide to buy it and the outcome from the graders.

    Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
  • AngryDragon
    AngryDragon Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
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    We are hoping the owner will consent to submitting it for authentication. That will be the first step.

  • Boosibri
    Boosibri Posts: 12,715 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    With the die cracks the “HISP”, can you match the die to already authenticated coins? That would be a big head start in authentication.

    Latin American Collection

  • TwoKopeiki
    TwoKopeiki Posts: 9,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Boosibri said:
    With the die cracks the “HISP”, can you match the die to already authenticated coins? That would be a big head start in authentication.

    Tough to do with the Armored Bust Ferdinand. Peak production at Mexico City - 200+ dies a year used - but not impossible. Not sure I'd go down that path now vs sending it to our friends at NGC/PCGS.

    @AngryDragon said:
    We are hoping the owner will consent to submitting it for authentication. That will be the first step.

    Best of luck and please let us know how it goes. Even if it comes back authentic, it will be a pain to estimate fair market value for something like this.

    Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
  • AngryDragon
    AngryDragon Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
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    I've narrowed the possible dates to 1808, 1809, 1810. Two Stackbowers lots have reverse die cracks at the top of H(IS)P similar to this example. This is the best I can do with the resources at my disposal.


    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-LA2CY/mexico-8-reales-1809-mo-th-mexico-city-mint-ferdinand-vii-ngc-ms-63

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-141IQ3/mexico-8-reales-1809-mo-th-mexico-city-mint-ferdinand-vii-ngc-au-58

  • threefifty
    threefifty Posts: 194 ✭✭✭
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    I may be wrong, but my guess would be that for the coin in question those are not die cracks but tracing lines made by the diesinker to guide the placement of the individually punched letters. As TwoKopeiki noted, if we're lucky we may see another example from the same dies but it will be quite a search.

  • bronzemat
    bronzemat Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Amazing piece. Never seen that type with that kind of error before.

  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,068 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Nice catch

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