PCGS and pedigrees
MasonG
Posts: 6,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have a 1911 Caballito I purchased a number of years ago that came from the Pittman Part 3 sale in 1999. The coin is in a 2x2, with the auction lot noted:
This is the auction catalog:
The John Jay Pittman Collection - Selected Numismatic Rarities - Part Three
Aug 6-8, 1999
Catalogued & Sold By
David Akers Numismatics, Inc.
and the auction listing:
I would like to get it graded and have the pedigree included. I wrote to PCGS to ask if it would be possible, including the above info and images. I received a reply requesting info and images from the auction, which I sent again and received this reply:
"Our team has requested that you include all the information you provided with your order when you submit it to PCGS. Please know that this is not a guarantee, but we will look over the documents you provide to back up the pedigree request."
I'm not sure what to think at this point, since they already have seen all the documentation I am able to provide. Does anybody have any experience with having a pedigree assigned to a coin which is not pictured in the auction catalog and depends, in part, on the written description on a cardboard 2x2? I don't remember the dealer who sold it to me but for what it's worth, I don't have any reason to doubt him as the coin was priced as one might have expected for a generic Caballito, with no premium for the Pittman provenance.
Comments
I have experience with sending in a coin. It was a 1770 Pillar dollar, It was in a white 2x2 much like yours, I was able to track down a record from a Norweb/Brand auction, later the same coin was resold at another auction with a picture, it referenced the earlier auction. The pic was bad, but had a very clear mark on the obverse. I photocopied the stuff and sent in everything I had. It was enough.
It sounds like what you have might be enough, I’d give it a shot.
The fact that there isn’t a pic might be a problem. They have no way of knowing if that’s the same coin. It’s the original holder? Maybe they can compare writing to other coins from the same sale, if such images exist.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I have not had any luck doing this unless the object was a medal with a name or number to make it unique (or if I had the actual auction tag). Otherwise, I doubt it will fly.
Honestly, anyone can write that on their 2x2 and try to pass it off, so I can't fault PCGS.
I agree. This is where the issue is, which is why I wrote to PCGS for guidance. It's frustrating that they didn't say one way or the other in our email conversation and instead, said "Send it in and see what happens."
I don't know if the coin is in the holder from the auction. That is an avenue to explore- thanks for the idea.
Fooling around with grok, it seems possible the 2x2 pictured above could be the holder it was sold from the auction in. Does anybody have any ideas for how to confirm how multi-lot coins from that auction were holdered/labeled and if there might be any images of other such lots in those holders?
David Akers was a very professional firm. I HIGHLY doubt it was auctioned in a 2x2. All coins were sealed in 2.5”x2.5” PVC flips for secure lot viewing and protection.
I know it seems unlikely, but I sat in a hallway in Goldberg's office about 25 years ago previewing Mexican revolution lots for an upcoming auction out of double row boxes. Some were in paper 2x2 envelopes, so I figured- who knows?
And why would Pittman write “ex Pittman” on his 2x2? Or know before he died what lot number that coin would be in?
I'm not suggesting Pittman did it. I'm just asking a question about how the coins in the auction were holdered and labeled. Based on my experience (noted above), I wouldn't have trouble believing a lower valued coin in a multi-coin lot with no images would be housed in a 2x2 with the lot information written on it. It could even have been put in an oversize PVC flip for lot viewing after that, for all I know. If anybody has actual experience with how that auction was run, it would be good to know,
So if the handwriting isn’t Pittman’s (and I suggest it isn’t), then are you trying to prove the 2x2 is Pittman’s? I guess I’m not following the steps in your proof.
Since the coin was not photographed, you’re SOL as they say.
Here’s what I can tell you about the sale. It was held the weekend before the 1999 ANA in Chicago (probably downtown, but I can’t remember). My flight got cancelled due to storms and both me and my buddy got two flight vouchers each out of United, so I never made it there. I remember this because that was the ANA where “The Great Debate” was held between John J Ford and Ted Buttrey and I was so sorry to have missed it. I later saw the recording on VHS tape, which may still be in the library of the ANS. But I digress.
My proxy won a few lots for me and I’m sure I have auction tags if you want me to search for them.
But how does this help prove your case?
I can tell you the photographer for the sale was Tom Mulvaney. I think he’s still around somewhere. Maybe he can help you? But is it worth it for a $500 coin?
I am interested in finding out if the notations on the coin's holder were made in preparation for the auction.
I've already agreed that's a problem. I'm not yet convinced that it's impossible to get a pedigree notation without a photograph.
It could, if you won any multi-coin lots that didn't have images and were housed similar to my coin that you did take pictures of while still in those holders. I don't expect so, and I'm not asking you to look.
Since there were no images of the lot I'm interested in, the only help the photographer might provide is if he could describe how a lot he didn't photograph was holdered. I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.
OK, back to the notations again.
If the whole sale was of Pittman’s coins, why would the auctioneer scrawl “ex Pittman” on the 2x2. It would be obvious due to it being in the sale, no?
Have you checked if that number (883.59) was the price realized for the lot? If so, how did they know that in advance?
Occam’s Razor suggests the buyer or subsequent buyer scratched that writing on the 2x2, thus not helping your case one bit.
Edited to add: PR was $103.50, so not sure what number means unless it was a resale price.
I'm trying to work with what I've got.
I don't know.
Seems reasonable.
I'm seeing a PR of $103.50. I am wondering if that number (883.59) is some kind of internal inventory number for the auction firm. I know- it's unlikely, but as I have mentioned before, I don't know and I'm just looking for info from anyone who might.
I haven't ruled that out, but I'm not seeing any harm in trying to get more information.
edited to add...
You mentioned Occam's Razor, why would a dealer flip through an auction catalog to find coins he could falsely attribute to a particular auction and then not attempt to charge a premium for? Doesn't seem to be any benefit to be had there.
True indeed. And I agree with you it is probably a fact.
The problem is getting PCGS to believe it. They are paid to be skeptical because their money/reputation is on the line.
Absolutely. It would sure be helpful if I could get a "Yes" or "No" answer as to whether or not the info I provided satisfied them and if it didn't, what they would want to see instead of the "Send it in and see what happens" response.
I know in the overall scheme of things, it's not a life or death decision but if I knew for a fact one way or the other, it would make the choice to send the coin for slabbing simpler.
Yeah, it would be nice to get a straight response over the phone, but I’ve had them say the same thing a couple times. Here are my thoughts on the matter: 1. The people on the phone aren’t graders, they aren’t equipped to answer that. 2. They literally get paid to give opinions on coins, one shouldn’t expect them to do it for free, that kinda goes against the business model.
NGC has given me similar responses in regard to pedigrees or coins that were questionable for authenticity “send it in and we’ll see.”
I do think they’ll tell you if they certainly will not certify something, but that’s probably about it. “We don’t certify spoon coins” or something like that.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.