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Who was a better hitter(offensive player), Pujols or Manny?

1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk

@craig44 mentioned in another thread. I would say that 90% of the people automatically point to Pujols without hesitation, but does this fall into the 'depends how you look at it' category?

Here are their career totals two key hitting measurements:

OPS+
Manny 154
Pujols 145

So career wise, Manny maintains the higher percentage, BUT Pujols maintained that percentage for 13,000 plate appearances vs 9,700 for Manny.

So then what if we just looked at their 12 year peak:

OPS+
Manny 159
Pujols 169

So Pujols does have the edge there peak wise, but do we ignore the massive drop Pujols got with the Angels when he had a 108 OPS+ that dragged his career down?

Can we just ignore the drop off during his Angels tenure?

Its not like Manny didn't play to an older age himself to avoid a percentage drop off in his rate stats. After Manny's peak of a 154 OPS+, he went on to produce from age 35-39 Manny a 145 OPS+, but those were the years he missed most games due to injuries(which also helped lead to the large 3,300 difference in career plate appearances. So Manny wasn't saving his percentages by his old man years, he was actually losing out on key counting numbers due to injury, while also maintaining a high level hitting ability. Manny never got bad like Pujols did.

Here is another way to look at it. When you look at their Run Expectancy for their entire careers:

Run Expectancy (Runs above league average, which includes baserunning,hitting in double plays, men on base hitting), so their total offensive value.

Manny 700 runs above average for his Run Expectancy in 9,774 lifetime plate appearances.
Pujols 743 runs above average for his Run Expectancy in 13,041 lifetime plate appearances.

So it took Pujols 3,267 MORE plate appearances than Manny to produce only 43 more runs.

So it took Pujols FIVE more seasons worth of plate appearances to produce an extra 43 runs(which represents an average Manny season).

So is that considered better to only edge a guy but taking five more seasons to do it?

Comments

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 31,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Manny was awesome for awhile with the Sox but the "Manny being Manny" got old

    Both were great

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pujols wasnt really as bad at the end as some of the advanced numbers say. He was certainly bad by his standards but if you told a team they could have a guy play 130 games and hit 250+ with @0+ Hrs and 90+ RBIs they would take a full roster of those guys.

    Both are certainly in the greatest right handed hitters of all time conversation, but I have to give the nod to Pujols. Theres just so many extra at bats that its hard to ignore and the AL East has a lot more hitter friendly parks than the AL West or NL Central aside from Cincy

    I believe Manny just recently finally retired and is trying to get a job in MLB now. Hed been playing in Australia and Asia although Im not sure he ever actually played a game in Australia over some medical disputes. The end of his career in MLB ended very poorly as well with him just quitting after failing a second drug test

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When the Indians first got Ramirez his talent was at once recognized but he seemed immature and quite distracted, especially in the field. On top of that he developed a bad habit of playing lazy. I recall incidents where he’d hit a routine infield grounder and actually turned toward the dugout. He would engage with fans in the stands during games, it affected his fielding.

    By the time he left Cleveland for Boston the Tribe management was done with his antics. Here was a supremely talented player who just seemed distracted. Maybe the Red Sox fans can speak to the issue, but I always thought David Ortiz had a very positive, stabilizing influence on Manny.

    I don’t know if Manny belongs in the HOF or if he’ll get in some day. I will only say he’s one of the more talented guys I’ve seen this play. At the plate he was a joy to watch. 😇

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 31,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Maywood said:
    When the Indians first got Ramirez his talent was at once recognized but he seemed immature and quite distracted, especially in the field. On top of that he developed a bad habit of playing lazy. I recall incidents where he’d hit a routine infield grounder and actually turned toward the dugout. He would engage with fans in the stands during games, it affected his fielding.

    By the time he left Cleveland for Boston the Tribe management was done with his antics. Here was a supremely talented player who just seemed distracted. Maybe the Red Sox fans can speak to the issue, but I always thought David Ortiz had a very positive, stabilizing influence on Manny.

    I don’t know if Manny belongs in the HOF or if he’ll get in some day. I will only say he’s one of the more talented guys I’ve seen this play. At the plate he was a joy to watch. 😇

    Ortiz absolutely helped curb or minimize the "Manny being Manny" thing

    He was an odd character who had Phenominal talent, I don't think he got the most out of his career numbers wise due to his own Manny isms

    He was huge for bringing championships back to Boston but eventually he wore out his welcome and just turned his back on the Sox.

    I loved him until he pulled his refusal to play and gave the Sox no choice but to get rid of him

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