Question on this questionable 1875-CC Trade; PCGS apparently said "Unverifiable"...

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burfle23
burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Currently for sale, not in my wheelhouse but I have a decent attribution guide to help, but not sure this one attributes to a genuine variety.

Curious the thoughts of the Trade experts out there!

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  • lermish
    lermish Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2024 6:20PM
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    I would agree with PCGS. I can't match it to any of the known dies but wouldn't say it is counterfeit for sure (due to poor surfaces making it difficult to attribute).

    For anyone with better eyes than me, here is the high res photo:

    chopmarkedtradedollars.com

  • IkesT
    IkesT Posts: 4,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2024 7:23PM
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    I agree; the CC mint mark position isn't a match for any of the documented Cox varieties (see below):

    http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/1875-CC_Trade.html

    OP mint mark:

  • Connecticoin
    Connecticoin Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Maybe it was hard for the PCGS graders to see through the mold.

    *For Sale on Ebay*
  • cheezhed
    cheezhed Posts: 6,406 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What is the weight?

    Many happy BST transactions
  • slider23
    slider23 Posts: 681 ✭✭✭✭
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    I am leaning toward counterfeit as the date and mint mark are not a match for a known genuine example, and the denticles are off. I agree with PCGS Authenticity Unverifiable.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Seller has now listed a different 1875-CC Trade, this one back bodybagged by NGC:

    Images of the 2nd one in comparison on the right:


  • AUandAG
    AUandAG Posts: 25,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Liberty incomplete. Cotton bales detail missing. Reverse dentils off the rim....it's a clear fake to my eye.
    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • slider23
    slider23 Posts: 681 ✭✭✭✭
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    Looks like these got bounced from eBay as I could not find either example. After viewing the NGC example, they are both counterfeits. They appear to come off the same die, then altered.

  • Bochiman
    Bochiman Posts: 25,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    They kind of look like some of the ones I saw in China...counterfeit of course...over a decade ago.
    Make them close, alter their surfaces so it is harder to tell, and then sell them...people may think they are authentic problem coins then.
    I don't like their looks nor surfaces.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So, does this example actually certed look like the same non-variety?

  • Maywood
    Maywood Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    "Authenticity Unverifiable" seems wrong to me, the reason we pay and submit coins to the EXPERTS is for an opinion on authenticity. If they can't render that opinion I believe a refund should be issued.

    I once submitted an HK-4/US Semi-Centennial White Metal medal to NGC. They gladly kept all the fees and returned the medal to me in a body-bag. The insert read "Unable to Verify Authenticity" much like the OP. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin

  • IkesT
    IkesT Posts: 4,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @burfle23 said:
    So, does this example actually certed look like the same non-variety?

    Sure does! The date is pretty easy to align by eye; the mint mark is harder to see, so I aligned the images:

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Maywood said:
    "Authenticity Unverifiable" seems wrong to me, the reason we pay and submit coins to the EXPERTS is for an opinion on authenticity. If they can't render that opinion I believe a refund should be issued.

    I once submitted an HK-4/US Semi-Centennial White Metal medal to NGC. They gladly kept all the fees and returned the medal to me in a body-bag. The insert read "Unable to Verify Authenticity" much like the OP. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    While that is an unsatisfying opinion, they did assess the coin and issue an opinion. Force them to issue a more definite opinion, they are just going to say counterfeit to protect themselves.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2024 8:39PM
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    @IkesT said:

    @burfle23 said:
    So, does this example actually certed look like the same non-variety?

    Sure does! The date is pretty easy to align by eye; the mint mark is harder to see, so I aligned the images:

    Cool!

  • afewmorecents
    afewmorecents Posts: 11 ✭
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    @burfle23 said:

    @IkesT said:

    @burfle23 said:
    So, does this example actually certed look like the same non-variety?

    Sure does! The date is pretty easy to align by eye; the mint mark is harder to see, so I aligned the images:

    Cool!

    One member posted that there are no die matches for this coin. Have you found repeating contact marks?

  • VanHalen
    VanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Isn't that verbiage used to protect the TPG when returning a "counterfeit" coin to the submitter?

    If they declared the coin a counterfeit, there could be legal implications when returning the piece. That is what I heard in the past.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2024 7:31PM
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    PCGS has returned coins labeled counterfeit.

  • slider23
    slider23 Posts: 681 ✭✭✭✭
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    Here are some die marking on the two body bagged by NGC and PCGS that are the same. Stars 5,6, and 7 are flat on both examples and the I in America has the top serif missing. My guess there will be some more of these showing up with the same die markings. I looked on eBay and could not find any of these sold or listed.

    I am not sure what to make of the PCGS AU details coin. It does not have the flat stars and the top I serif is a little different. I am leaning toward counterfeit, but I guess it could be a new variety. I could not find any other known type 1 reverse dates that had the same CC position.

  • Cougar1978
    Cougar1978 Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2024 7:18AM
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    Well if the ref (our hosts) said the catch is out of bounds, it is what it is. Better luck on your next play.

    Investor

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