DMPL Gem Morgans - too expensive?

dan1ecu · January 23, 2003 2:51AM

I think MS64-65 deep mirror prooflike Morgan Dollars are beautiful, but are they a good value at current prices? They don’t appear to be too scarce. Do you think that there’s more downside than upside potential as far as prices go?

Dan

dorkkarl · January 23, 2003 3:05AM

i've never really understood the determined attraction for them. i have a couple, great as examples, but i personally don't see that a collection in dmpl is "prettier" than a collection of coins w/ nice cartwheels.

just my opinoin.

K S

Dog97 · January 23, 2003 8:23AM

dan1ecu
You see the common junk on eBay and dealer's inventory. A nice DMPL is priced almost as crazy as monster toned material and just as scarce.
The nice thing about it is that you can tone a Morgan but you can't DMPL one.

Morganluver · January 23, 2003 9:09AM

Randy Campbell(ANACS Senior grader and DMPL expert) gave a seminar on DMPLs at FUN and it was his belief that all DMPLs were undervalued and some dates and grades extremely so. It's real tough to find nice high grade MS Morgans considering how they were handled and stored and probably 500 times more difficult(rare) to find DMPLs similarly graded. I own 60-70 DMPLs of various dates and grades, but I could probably find 1000 times that number of the same dates and grades in non-DMPL without even trying. You may or may not like or collect DMPLs, but they are so much more rare than regular MS issues.

dorkkarl · January 23, 2003 12:00PM

i guess if i was a bigger fan of the series, i might have a stronger opinion. seems like every show i go to though, at least 1/3 of the stock in every freakin' case is morgans! (or state quarters...)

i defer to the true morgan afficianados. sounds like maybe they are way to cheap...

K S

FC57Coins · January 23, 2003 12:17PM

Whether toned or untoned, I think DMPL's are extremely attactive coins. I guess I'm fascinated by the fact that their mirrorlike surfaces are so fragile and they've lasted all this time banging around in canvas bags. Low MS coins can look pretty pittyful, but some MS63's 64's and certainly 65's can be breathtaking!

Frank

MS63DMPL

MS64DMPL

MS65DMPL

relayer · January 23, 2003 12:50PM

That 1884 sure is nice.

DesertLizard · January 23, 2003 1:32PM

Why are DMPLs limited to so few years?

The 1880s [i think] seem to be everywhere. Hardly a good "investment" although they are cheap.

PQpeace · January 23, 2003 1:53PM

I love DMPL and PL morgans.....
But I have to let most of mine go.
Most of my #2 PL registry set will be consigned to B&M for their NEXT Auction.I hate to do this,but I have my eyes on some real nice key coins that I don't want to miss out on.
I will be saying goodbye to them on Sunday

Larry

lava · January 23, 2003 3:43PM

I agree that dmpls are typically undervalued. I think the same holds true for pl morgans. Most of my coins are pl because I think they represent a very good investment. Take a typical ms65. The ms65pl population will surely be far fewer in number than the ms65, but trade at just a slight premium. The ms65dmpl typically has a population in the same range as the ms65pl, but trades at a significant premium over the ms65, and over the ms65pl as well. The population reports tell it all -- there aren't many dmpls to be found in any grade, let alone ms65. If I had a choice, I would typically opt for a ms66pl over the 65dmpl, but you really need to assess each coin for its own eye appeal. All of this is just my humble opinion, but then again, mirrored morgans are the focus of my collecting/investing. I think the interest in morgans will hold up, but as one contributor noted, interest in rainbows may fade as they can be doctored to appear that way. Happy collecting. By the way, I'm inching closer to completing a mirrored collection, I just need some coins to cross to get registry credit (don't worry, no ACG, PCI, ICG, and all that other garbage out there.)

michael · January 23, 2003 4:22PM

morganluver and legend hit the nail right on the head so to speak

here is an attatchment of a cameoed pcgs ms65 dmpl 1888-o

for really nice cameoed dmpl morgans they are ALL UNDERVALUED

now i think that half of the morgans currently certified by pcgs/ngc do not qualify for what i call the exceptional eye appeal factor maybe they are real dmpl dollars maybe!! but just do not have the good eye appeal

which actually makes them more scrare then they already seem!

sincerely michael

now go try to find a nicely cameoed 1884 cc pcgs ms65 dmpl something that is original white out of a treasury bag which has amazing eye appeal and is really a super duper high end 65 and just has the right look well let me tell you many in even 65 pcgs holders dmpl do not qualify for waht i call
a good coin to own they might be tech=nically 65 and dmpl but are juat not exceptional eye appealling enougfh for me

or go try to find a common date 1881s or is that 1880s well it is late and i cant think now dmpl ms 65 pcgs morgan but with a monster cameo good luck this is a rare coin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and if you are looking for them and know waht you are looking at you maybe see two a year!

mbbiker · January 23, 2003 4:26PM

i'll stick with the 62's and 63's they still have the DMPL look but they cost Alot less. here is my first DMPL morgan link

dorkkarl · January 23, 2003 10:01PM

fc57coins has an excellent point. i realized that a lot of the dmpl's i see have ugly bagmarks, etc, that are greatly magnified by the mirrored surfaces. i guess that's why i can't get real excited by them, in general. & where they are nice, i wonder why someone wouldn't rather just by the proof at less $.

K S

FC57Coins · January 23, 2003 10:02PM

<< Why are DMPLs limited to so few years? >>

Actually - DMPL's exist for most mintage years, but due to attrition and the fact that these things are over 100 years old now, some dates are harder to find than others. Several factors contributed to making DMPL's happen. First off, when the planchets were being made, the silver ingots would be rolled back and forth through sets of rollers at the mint to get the metal to the right thickness and ready to stamp the planchets out of them. If the rollers were new and smooth, they would give the planchet strip a mirror like finish which contributed to the DMPL product outcome. Next, the dies were basined. This is a process whereby the individual dies were polished on a slow grinding wheel to a mirror finish this was done as a matter of course to help improve striking characteristics of the dies. Because of the fact that the devices were recessed and not polished, this gave some of the first strike dollars a cameo finish. Now, think about all these things having to happen, and the fact that these are circulation strike coins, and you begin to appreciate how wonderful it is to see one of these bad girls in a high state of preservation with such beautiful finishes!

Frank

FC57Coins · January 23, 2003 10:24PM

<< i wonder why someone wouldn't rather just by the proof at less $. >>

Karl:

Generally DMPL's can range in price from less than $100 on up. The cheapest proofs I've seen (that are nice collectible coins) tend to be close to $800 and up, and are usually pretty hard to find. I guess for me, I'd rather find some nice DMPL's at lower prices which are actually very pleasing. Some dates are so difficult to find in DMPL that their prices skyrocket just like monster toned dollars as Dog97 mentioned.

Frank

cladking · January 23, 2003 10:58PM

I used to see a lot of original dollar rolls and rarely saw PL's. When one
was found it was usually unattractive. DMPL gem Morgans are rare in most
dates, and not really common in any date. With the many serious collectors
for Morgans it is surprising they don't sell for more.

ricardouno · January 23, 2003 11:45PM

To objectively assess just how rare gem DMPL's really are, one can go to the latest population report of the PCGS. Excluding the "Common dates" of 1879-s, 1880-s and 1881-s (and perhaps 1883-0, 1884-O), add up the TOTAL of all remaining MS-65 DMPL's and above for the ENTIRE series. It is not a very high number considering all the dates of this large series.

Additionally, neither PCGS or NGC designates a DMPL as "cameo". The number of coins with MS-65 DMPL or above with full cameo effect is even more miniscule.

Let's not malign attractive MS-64 DMPL's (especially cameos) or nice MS65pl's (or above) either. They are scarcer than one might think. What is being sold on ebay and sitting for months / years in dealers' cases is often at the very low end of the prooflike food chain. If you go to a smaller coin show you may have a difficult time finding a single Morgan prooflike that is really special....they are salted away in tightly held collections, sold privatley by dealers to customers or make their appearence at major auctions. Perhaps, for those of you who commented that you have not been impressed by what you have seen....the truth is that you may not have seen a truly neat DMPL or a "wonder coin" as prooflike specialists are prone to call them.

Considering their rarity, for most dates of the series, quality Morgan DMPL's are likely very underpriced relative to the proported published "bid" prices.

Not your "typical" DMPL

Morganluver · January 24, 2003 12:59AM

ricardouno

Very well said and quite a special DMPL you have there. Does it have a cameo obverse?

ricardouno · January 24, 2003 12:03PM

Morganluver,

The coin has both a full cameo obverse and reverse with very deep, almost black, mirrors on both sides. This is a scan and not a digital photo image so the overall appearence is somewhat muted.

Ricardouno

Fletcher · May 26, 2006 4:31PM

There are some smart people here

sweetwilliet · May 26, 2006 10:57PM

PL and DMPL Morgans are what I collect. I think they are undervaued, like what was said above. A typical MS65 DMPL, common date, will run you $600-1000, so that is too much for me for one coin. I try and collect MS63-65 pls and MS63-64 dmpls, you can get a really nice coin with an extremely low pop for under $300 in 64dmpl. I think that sure beats buying a coin with 10,000 better for over a grand.

ABC123 · May 26, 2006 11:10PM

Is it just a perception, or a reality, that PCGS DMPL coins seem to have more "eye-appeal" than the NGC DPL coins ?

Steve27 · May 26, 2006 11:44PM

Fletcher you must be really board to have brought back a thread from 2003. For a minute there I thought dorkkarl was posting again, alas no such luck.

etexmike · May 26, 2006 11:49PM

I think there is nothing nicer than a DMPL Morgan. I buy them when the budget will allow.
I think even the common dates are a bargin and have multiples of them.
The only problem I have with the coins is that I don't own nearly enough of them.

-----------

etexmike

Fletcher · May 27, 2006 1:16AM

<< Fletcher you must be really board to have brought back a thread from 2003. For a minute there I thought dorkkarl was posting again, alas no such luck. >>

Lol ... I didn't think that anyone would notice

Funny, though, how the exact same conversation regarding overvaluation was going on 4 years ago. Let me just say that if I had an opportunity to buy at those prices, my set would be one hell of a lot nicer! Will people be saying that again 4 years from now??? We will see ...

coingame2000 · May 27, 2006 1:35AM

<< I think MS64-65 deep mirror prooflike Morgan Dollars are beautiful, but are they a good value at current prices? They don’t appear to be too scarce. Do you think that there’s more downside than upside potential as far as prices go?

Dan >>

Dan: The following link (http://www.numisvision.com/news/5/DEEP-MIRROR-PROOFLIKE-MORGAN-DOLLARS.html) will take you to an article I wrote on DMPL dollars a couple of months ago that should answer your questions. I'm technologically challenged and don't know how to make the link live here, but you can copy and paste it into your browser. I hope you find this information useful.

Mikey

Fletcher · May 27, 2006 2:02AM

Link-i-fied

And, it is a GREAT article ... I actually have printed it out and take it to shows with me

ttxp · May 27, 2006 3:27AM

My husband is passionate about DMPL Morgan's, initially I wasn't impressed with them given bagmarks are so evident.

I think a large part of my dislike was the cost as others have mentioned. It was logically pointed out to me that these "overpriced' coins are only "overpriced" given the demand and that demand is ultimately fueled by rarity.

I think in the long term, given more collectors are starting to appreciate them, they will hold their value and appreciate. As another writer mentioned, coin show cases are filled with Morgan's, finding affordable and attractive DMPL examples in them isn't that easy.

Bear · May 27, 2006 3:48AM

When buying a DMCAMEO, be sure that the mirror is at least 8 inches deep

and is clear of any fog or cloudiness. Be sure that the coin is properly

graded. Some of them look at least 1 point overgraded. Try to stick to PCGS

as they generally have the tightest grading on what constitutes a DMCAMEO.

The coins are not cheap, but they are mostly in strong hands and seem to warrent

the price for properly graded coins and will warrent more in the future.

ultradmpldollars · May 27, 2006 7:28AM

Heres an example of a stretch...

dmpl morgan on ebay

dwssws · May 27, 2006 7:51AM

<< Heres an example of a stretch...

dmpl morgan on ebay >>

you couldn't stretch silly putty enough to make that one a dmpl

MAD4MORGANS · May 27, 2006 8:04AM

<< 

<< Heres an example of a stretch...

dmpl morgan on ebay >>

you couldn't stretch silly putty enough to make that one a dmpl

>>

That even makes some of my Morgan Dollars look good!!

coingame2000 · May 27, 2006 9:49AM

<< Link-i-fied

And, it is a GREAT article ... I actually have printed it out and take it to shows with me

>>

Thanks for the kind words. I've been involved in this segment of the coin market for over three decades and these numismatic treasures excite me as much today as when I was first introduced to them in the early 1970's.

Mikey

bestclser1 · May 27, 2006 2:59PM

Mikey,Can you post that moose 04-O in 66 DMPL i just bought from you.Image doesnt begin to show depth and clarity of mirrors,but would think people would be interested in your take.Thanks

Coxe · May 27, 2006 4:24PM

I don't think I need to add one more opinion that DMPLs are grossly underbvalued due to simply demand side of supply/demand. That said, some dates of DMPLs and some dates Morgan dollars in general, are hardly rare. 79-S, 80-S, 82-CC, 83-CC, 84-CC, 86-P, 87-P, 96-P, 98-O, .... are as common as modern commemoratives and as defensible as such. Many other dtaes are not in that league. Often overlooked are the Philadelphia dates because of the proofs out of that mint. 1884 has long been a favorite of mine. Carefully accumulating the real gem DMPLs may be challenging but also relatively cheap. 1891 -- I have never seen a full gem DMPL. It seems everyone who has a 64DMPL honestly believes they have the exception though, especially dealers. Any near gem cameo with deep mirrors is a RARE coin without that attendant respect. 1880-O runs a very close second but gets a lot more respect. 1880 and 1900 also are overshadowed by the proofs, each having only maybe a dozen or so gem DMPLs extant. Most 20th century Morgan dates from all mints are quite difficult in DMPL. Try to find 03-S, 04-P, 21-S in DMPL much less gem DMPL. These should be six figure coins and in time will, and not just due to inflation. (I know; people have been saying this for 20 years now.)

Myqqy · May 27, 2006 4:27PM

Heres an example of a stretch...

I've never dealt with that seller before- but it's interesting in that he has 3 or 4 dmpl morgans that all look like typical business strikes.....

Fletcher · May 28, 2006 2:34AM

<< Thanks for the kind words. >>

They are well deserved. Your article is a must have in my Morgan buying process:

1) Find a DMPL Morgan that has great eye appeal, is untoned, has truly deep mirrors (no haze), and is high-end for the grade;
2) Check out the pop reports;
3) Check out your article for relative rarity and price movement;
4) Check out my price guides;

At that point, I either make an offer or keep on truckin'.

coingame2000 · May 28, 2006 3:02AM

<< 

<< Thanks for the kind words. >>

They are well deserved. Your article is a must have in my Morgan buying process:

1) Find a DMPL Morgan that has great eye appeal, is untoned, has truly deep mirrors (no haze), and is high-end for the grade;
2) Check out the pop reports;
3) Check out your article for relative rarity and price movement;
4) Check out my price guides;

At that point, I either make an offer or keep on truckin'. >>

Thanks again, I really appreciate. BTW, I'm working on a price/rarity analysis article for MS66 and MS67 DMPL dollars that should be completed and on my site within a couple of weeks. Speaking of high grade DMPL prices -- a PCGS MS67 DMPL 1879-S dollar (pop 7/0) that was Lot 1229 in the Bowers and Merena Sale on Friday evening hammered at $14,000, that's $16,100 with the juice!!!

Mikey

Coxe · May 28, 2006 3:26AM

In general, and I believe the population reports indicate this too, Morgan dollars from choice (MS63) through select gem (MS66) have a DMPL survivor representation of around 2% of the population in each grade. Superb gems (MS67) are about half of that, 1%. Below choice, it doubles to around 4% in each grade with some blurring due to grading standards flux and other factors. We certainly are not seeing general trends of 25x to 50x premium factors within the Morgan series. PLs, by the way, have numbers roughly double the DMPL ones.

I have modeled Morgans, specifically prooflike Morgans, using market capitalization and there are suprises among all tiers, common to exceptionally rare dates. Concentrating on the PCGS gems is great for illustrating the disparity, but it misses the broader picture -- those frustrating NA's in the chart particularly. Valuation also cannot be rocked by a significant factor of 20% should say a 6th 65DMPL piece come forward from an inital population of 5. The chart is useful not in the minutia but in just observing the gross differences between relative rarity and relative price. Cutting numbers there in half in the rarity factors still demonstrates this anomolous situation.

bestclser1 · May 28, 2006 12:13PM

<< 

<< 

<< Thanks for the kind words. >>

They are well deserved. Your article is a must have in my Morgan buying process:

1) Find a DMPL Morgan that has great eye appeal, is untoned, has truly deep mirrors (no haze), and is high-end for the grade;
2) Check out the pop reports;
3) Check out your article for relative rarity and price movement;
4) Check out my price guides;

At that point, I either make an offer or keep on truckin'. >>

Thanks again, I really appreciate. BTW, I'm working on a price/rarity analysis article for MS66 and MS67 DMPL dollars that should be completed and on my site within a couple of weeks. Speaking of high grade DMPL prices -- a PCGS MS67 DMPL 1879-S dollar (pop 7/0) that was Lot 1229 in the Bowers and Merena Sale on Friday evening hammered at $14,000, that's $16,100 with the juice!!!

Mikey >>

Mikey,How did that compare to the 66DMPL i bought from Laura,or the 67 i bought from you awhile back,and how nice is that 04-O 66 in your opinion?

coingame2000 · May 29, 2006 4:23AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Thanks for the kind words. >>

They are well deserved. Your article is a must have in my Morgan buying process:

1) Find a DMPL Morgan that has great eye appeal, is untoned, has truly deep mirrors (no haze), and is high-end for the grade;
2) Check out the pop reports;
3) Check out your article for relative rarity and price movement;
4) Check out my price guides;

At that point, I either make an offer or keep on truckin'. >>

Thanks again, I really appreciate. BTW, I'm working on a price/rarity analysis article for MS66 and MS67 DMPL dollars that should be completed and on my site within a couple of weeks. Speaking of high grade DMPL prices -- a PCGS MS67 DMPL 1879-S dollar (pop 7/0) that was Lot 1229 in the Bowers and Merena Sale on Friday evening hammered at $14,000, that's $16,100 with the juice!!!

Mikey >>

Mikey,How did that compare to the 66DMPL i bought from Laura,or the 67 i bought from you awhile back,and how nice is that 04-O 66 in your opinion? >>

Lloyd: The PCGS MS67 1879-S in the Bowers and Merena Sale wasn't even close to the PCGS MS67 DMPL 1879-S that you bought from me. Moreover, the MS66 DMPL 1879-S you recently acquired from Laura (which was originally my coin too) was also better. In regard to the PCGS MS66 DMPL 1904-O dollar you recently got from me -- it is the finest deep mirror prooflike 1904-O dollar that I've ever seen or owned, and it's a real honest-to-goodness cameo to boot. Furthermore, it flattens the Jack Lee PCGS MS67 DMPL...

Mikey

Coxe · May 29, 2006 4:34AM

Would love to see that 04-O. Those are terribly underrated as cameos, especially well struck ones. Most are those silver-grey, no contrast ones typical of nearly all 20th century Morgan dates.

coingame2000 · May 29, 2006 5:00AM

<< Would love to see that 04-O. Those are terribly underrated as cameos, especially well struck ones. Most are those silver-grey, no contrast ones typical of nearly all 20th century Morgan dates. >>

I think Lloyd (Bestclser1) is planning on attending the September 14-16, 2006 Long Beach coin show and I'm sure he'd be happy tp bring along the PCGS MS66 DMPL 1904-O dollar to show you -- just ask him. You can also view it on my website image gallery @ http://www.numisvision.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=21

Mikey

bestclser1 · May 29, 2006 5:11AM

Yes i WILL make the September Long Beach show,and will bring some goodies for show and tell.

dwssws · May 29, 2006 5:25AM

went and looked at the image of the coin in question and it is drop dead gorgeous!

( so were all the other coins I glanced at

)

bestclser1 · May 29, 2006 6:48AM

Malibu Mikey,is one of very few coin dealers with years of expertise and knowledge on DMPL Morgans.His eye is as good as anyones in this arena,and his article is a great source of information and should be a must read by anyone with an interest in that area.

Coxe · May 29, 2006 7:14AM

Yes, that 04-O is better than any I have seen. 1904 mint state is not supposed to look so good from ANY mint, certainly not New Orleans.

And I agree. Mikey D is the best. He got me my gem 03-S DMPL and we need to do some more business to finish up my set.

ricardouno · May 29, 2006 7:49AM

Coxe,

You noted:

"Would love to see that 04-O. Those are terribly underrated as cameos, especially well struck ones. Most are those silver-grey, no contrast ones typical of nearly all 20th century Morgan dates."

Here are the scans of the deepest, most cameoed 1904-O that I ever saw. I purchased it about 30 years ago and recently sold it for a significant premium. The coin is "only" a 63 but the visual appeal was stunning. In-hand it even appeared much better than the scans show, with no haze and with pure black mirrors and snow white devices.

Richard

1904-O obverse

1904-O reverse

bestclser1 · May 29, 2006 8:41AM

That looks nicer than only a 63.Great cameo.

Coxe · May 29, 2006 8:50AM

I agree. Another exception to the rule on that one and very conservatively graded by ANACS.

coingame2000 · May 30, 2006 1:29AM

dwssws, Bestclser1 and Coxe,

Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate it.

Mikey

DMPL Gem Morgans - too expensive?

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