Would you rather have a bunch of 8's or a few 9's ?

Basilone · January 20, 2003 6:37AM

Interesting collecting question (imagine!

) that I've been bumping the idea in my head for some time. The question is this: would you rather have say 500 PSA 8's in your collection or 100 PSA 9's? Lets assume your a collecting a couple of sets at a time, the PSA 9's would come from the same sets as the PSA 8's and the cards are a mostly commons with a couple of semi/minor/major stars thrown in. I thinking mostly of late 50's, 60's, and early 70's sets. Ive been thinking about downsizing my collection to just 9's...but then again I would have about 1/5 of the cards.

Another item to keep in mind...the very low POP PSA 9's could double POP in the next couple of years..especially for the late 60's/ early 70's issues...so do you pay good money for the 9's now?

Has anyone done this (downsize)? Any thoughts on the matter?

John

dalew · January 20, 2003 6:43AM

When I was collecting 7's, people were collecting 8's. Now that I'm collecting 8's, people are collecting 9's and 10's.

Since I have about 400 8's with some scattered 9's in there, I try to add 9's where I can and just keep collecting the 8's.

One interesting note on the 72 Set is that the SMR is showing that 8's are going up in value. If it keeps pace, as I add 9's, I may just keep the 8's instead of selling them on ebay to see if they continue to go up in value.

I've noticed that others who collect 8's keep them for trade purposes to get the cash to buy 9's.

I don't think that you can lose with either 8's or 9's, but 9's of course are better.

murcerfan · January 20, 2003 6:50AM

like your tag line says. what separates a 7.4 from a 7.6??
If the 8's are centered and appear are as nice as the 9's (as is the case with many sets), I would be happy with the 8's.
If you get into more modern stuff '73 and forward, or get into an issue with black borders or is otherwise notoriously tough for 9's ('71 Greatest Moments come to mind), then 9's are a worthy pusuit and worth the premium, IMHO.

Good post, thanks for the fresh meat........(or is that cheese).

Basilone · January 20, 2003 6:53AM

<< Good post, thanks for the fresh meat........(or is that cheese). >>

Thanks..but Im not sure my wife would understand....

John

LuxuryWines · January 20, 2003 6:55AM

John,

I am in the process of down grading ( I hate that word here) on a couple of sets .... Most prominently is the 1974 Topps set from the Superior sports auction I won in September (Carlos's Set). I am in the process of rebuilding that set into a straight 8 set selling the 9's off as I go. When I bought the set it had 135 PSA 9 , 534 PSA 8 and 5 PSA 7's. To Date I have added about 95 PSA 8 's and sold maybe 40% of the 9's ... My thoughts were that these cards are nice enough as PSA 8 and I did not need 9's which is my thinking most of the times. The differences to me between 8's 9's and 10's are so minute that for the huge premium it is not worth it (to me anyway).

JeffVN · January 20, 2003 6:57AM

I recently down-sized my collection, dropping virtually all of the modern cards (except for a few of the nicer rookies), and focusing upon a better (higher) graded vintage collection. Its much smaller, but adding to it takes a lot of patience, as you have to wait for the 9s and high end 8s to show up even though you want to jump on the 8s and high end 7s. It does make it easier for you to update your inventory.

Similar thread on quality vs quantity of collection

Basilone · January 20, 2003 7:06AM

The difference with the other thread is that I already have the 8's....so Im not totally starting from scratch. So do I sell the 8's and reinvest in 9's?..... thus having 1/5th the number of cards in my colleciton...that is the question Im bumping around in my head.

John

mikeschmidt · January 20, 2003 7:07AM

Because of space considerations -- it behooves me to follow less high-grade cards than more lower-grade cards. Yes, the difference between a PSA 8 and a PSA 9 can be very subtle -- but by collecting the top grades, I am able to get a good breadth of collection without being overwhelmed with cards. I wish I had the space to collect a la Davalillo -- but frankly I see myself moving between states and countries over the next 10 years -- and the less I have, the easier it will be to work with that. So I think I have seen my collection have a "flight to quality", upgrading the 8's to 9's and 10's and selling off some of the duplicate examples, etc.

Specifically with the 1955 Bowman baseball set -- I can tell you that a true PSA 9 looks very different than a true PSA 8. Much like the difficult 1971 Topps issue, corner wear and border chips scream out in a blazing white against the otherwise dark borders. Thus, I think that there is a huge difference, in most cases, of some of the PSA 9s to the PSA 8s. At any rate -- with the 1955 Bowman set, if anyone can build that set in straight PSA 8, they deserve a medal. If they can put together a nice run of 9's -- well that is just something extraordinary. As of my last count, I think nearly 60% of cards from that set have never been graded in PSA 9 or PSA 10 condition, thus making it the toughest mainstream set from the 1950s to complete in above PSA 8 grade.

Tipem · January 20, 2003 7:28AM

John,

Ths is a great topic and depends on a few individual points of interest.First off,the quality of your set in terms of good to mint.This would have a direct coorelation to my next point. Secondly,how high do you aspire to go on the set registry if that is one of your goals.Thirdly, how long do you want take complete your set.

I think that more than anything else it depends on the depths of your pockets.It also depends on the cards that you collect.I try to buy as many 9's as I can but with 56's,which is the set that I am building,they are generally 6-10 times as much as 8's. I can afford to buy commons in 9's but I could almost buy a whole set for the price that some of the star cards bring in that grade.As Mercerfan has noted,with a lot of sets and cards in general,the 8's sometimes are as nice as the 9's.

Your last point has good merit in that surely the low pop 9's will go up as more are graded.As long as PSA does not substantually lower their grading standards,I think that 9's will not lose their value.I do have to agree with Dalew's last statement,8's are great,9's are better. Personally,I wouldn't downsize my collection,just buy enough 9's to make you happy!!!

braves72078 · January 20, 2003 7:41AM

John,

I have thought about this also, but from a different view. I have thought of selling my 9's and going with 8's. I know from experience that the sets of my focus the difference in appeal between 8 and 9 is VERY miniscule. I feel that I could build a very nice set in 8 for much less money, so the big question we all have to answer is how much to spend. I know that in my 76 and 78 sets I am just as happy with the 8's as I am with the 9's and I think a complete set of either would be awesome in 8. I don't know if I would sell off the 9's or if I will in the future just focus on 8's. Also if nothing else for the price of an 8 I have a safe holder and storage for the card and I plan to keep them for MANY years. Thanks again for those raw 78's.

Billy

Cyphilissb · January 20, 2003 8:10AM

I have been bumping this question around in my head for some time now, i am building a set in 8 right now, and when im done i will either go back and upgrade or not, but Im pondering the question until I atleast finish it in 8.

I don't remember who it was but there was a gentleman that sold his 1951 bowman collection late last year, when someone asked him if he was gonna sell his whole collection he replied "that is my whole collection." I don't know if i like that or not. I wish i could find a set that i love enough to concentrate on soley, but the sets that i really enjoy are low enough in cost were finishing them in super high grade is a goal attainable in a year or so, and hardly enough to keep my interest for all my collecting years.

However someday I will probably fall in love with some vintage set and sell all of my other sets and cards so i can try to build the first ever psa 10 195x baseball set. (that should keep me busy for the rest of my life)

PlayBall · January 20, 2003 8:12AM

Since my only serious set is a pre-war set (1940 Play Ball), I'll go with the PSA 7 vs. PSA 8 standard. This issue tends to be unique because of the sometimes overwhelming "toning" issues. PSA standards seem to be, if two cards are completely equal in every area except toning, one with maybe left edge toning will get a 7, whereas one that is completely toned will get an 8. Even though the 8 is brown from toning, it is even and supposedly presents better. Not all would agree with this blurring the difference between a 7 and 8.

Right now, a PSA 8 or better set is not possible (26 not yet graded), and for that matter, a PSA 7 or better set isn't currently possible either. So to answer the question, if I wish to complete the set with current pops, I would not consider downsizing the lower grades. If there is some great "find", I would then consider going after the higher grades, but right now it's a serious chore finding even PSA 6-7 quality raw cards.

MS,

With all due respect, I wish my set had 55 Bowman-type populations. You've got me by roughly 6 to 1 on PSA 8's and 15 to 1 on PSA 9's, and the Play Ball set total pop in PSA 10 is currently at a whopping 1.

robstar · January 20, 2003 8:18AM

John ( Basilone )

I am quite content with collecting 8's. I will bottom feed for 9's when the opportunity presents itself, but I am normally content with a well centered 8.

I agree with your statement that the price of 9's will come down as the pop's grow. I also feel that 8's will remain stable, so the gap between the two will close somewhat.

I feel that the birth of the registry has spawned a competitive fire in some collector's to have the best
right now, money no object, giving no forthought to the future when the pop's will definitely increase.
Perhaps they can afford to take the loss or perhaps don't really look at their collections as investments.

Something I read here a short while ago sticks with me. It was along the lines of, YOU MAKE YOUR MONEY WHEN YOU BUY THE CARD, NOT WHEN YOU SELL IT.
Let's not fool ourselves, I know we all love the cards, but who here doesn't look at their collections or
inventories as investments.

Rob...

anjcollection · January 20, 2003 9:15AM

To me, it depends also on what the purpose of collecting the set would be. For investment purposes, 9s have always fared better. They increase in percentage a lot better than their 8 counterparts.

If its for a set that you'll keep for a long, long time, then getting the 8s would be better in my estimation.

I'm currently about to downgrade my 1959 Topps PSA 9s for that reason. I absolutely love the cards, but don't necessarily need to see them in 9 condition. I've got some 8s and even a few 7s that are visually more appealing, mainly due to centering.

Virtualizard · January 20, 2003 11:04AM

<< ... I feel that the birth of the registry has spawned a competitive fire in some collector's to have the best
right now, money no object, giving no forthought to the future when the pop's will definitely increase.
Perhaps they can afford to take the loss or perhaps don't really look at their collections as investments.

...

Rob... >>

Rob,

This is a good point and I think I could be accused of this. First, let me state that I don't look at my collection as an investment - I collect the cards because I want them - I regularly lose money when I upgrade my 8's to 9's. From about June to November of last year I tried to get every card that came up on ebay. I have backed off a bit on aggressive bidding for PSA 9s and I'm focusing more on completing (or beginning) my sets in PSA 8. It seems that some others have done the same and I've been getting some great deals lately as well as losing some that I don't really need. If I get some 9's here and there, great! Otherwise, I'll be happy with the 8's. I have examples of many cards in both PSA 8 and PSA 9 where the 8 has an overall better presentation than the 9 (mainly considering centering and focus).

I guess if you're in it for the competition (i.e. being #1 on the set registry) go for the 9's and 10's. If you just want to complete a really nice collection of graded cards, there is nothing wrong with PSA 5 - 8.

I haven't seen anyone mention that a PSA 5 is technically considered an "excellent" card. By definition, that means that the majority of cards are in worse condition. I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of collectors out there who know nothing about graded cards, and do not own any graded cards, who would be ecstatic to own a complete set of raw vintage cards that PSA would grade EX 5.

I know I'm a hypocrite in regard to this matter, but the fact that I know it validates the point that I'm trying to get across here. Any vintage card graded PSA 5 or above is a desirable card worthy of residing in any high grade vintage set.

JEB.

spacktrack · January 20, 2003 11:21AM

<< I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of collectors out there who know nothing about graded cards, and do not own any graded cards, who would be ecstatic to own a complete set of raw vintage cards that PSA would grade EX 5. >>

That's me! I love vintage cards, love the players, love it all. It's more cost effective for me because I can pursue all sets from 1951-present at the same time. Granted I do it raw, but I will probably build a whole Topps run for the price of what some spend building a full graded set. Both of us will collect for the same reason, but we go about it differently. To each his own.

spacktrack

Alfiewt · January 20, 2003 11:41AM

I would prefer the 9s even if they are just a tiny bit better then the 8s. I like to focus on just one set or a few small sets and continueously try to improve them, even if they are just micro improvements. I have no desire to own a large amount of cards. For me the fun of collecting is the challenge of trying to find better and better cards. To each his own

Virtualizard · January 20, 2003 11:52AM

Spacktrack and Alfiewt,

Great comments from opposite ends of the spectrum. That's what makes this hobby great. There is a market for everything - vintage/modern, graded/ungraded, PSA 10/PSA 5, etc. Good luck to everyone in whatever you are attempting to collect.

JEB.

LuxuryWines · January 20, 2003 1:20PM

Some interesting points have really been brought up here.... Mike Schmidt I agree with you that the difference in 8 vs a 9 is probably very noticable in a handful of sets (These with non white borders susceptible to chipping. 55 Bowman, 62 Topps , 71 Topps including Greatest Moments, 75 Topps readily come to mind but those to me are the exception rather than the rule.

I mean the degree of difference is so small we are using 10X magnifiers with lights rulers etc... Etc.. to catch those differences.
Even with all this equipment and effort 75-80% success would probably be phenomenal....

With the premium for a 9 being 200-400% over an 8, one could argue the premium is not being paid for the aesthetic qualities of the card.... More likely it competitive nature most of us have ( I want the best set period) or the thrill of the challenge in getting the exceedlingly rare.... Just a few more thoughts ....

HECK55 · January 20, 2003 1:36PM

My son and I started our 1953 Topps set in PSA 8. We bought raw cards to grade thinking we had a lot of 8's and probably several 9's. This was about 3-4 years ago. We soon found that our 9's were lucky to be 8's and our mass of 8's were mostly 7's with some not even that good. Finding nice raw 53's is tough - especially out in the desert area of west Texas - a big card show is 10 tables. If any had 53's they would be almost mint according to the dealer! PSA would grade them about ex. at best and 5 or 6 cards would be a hoard! We have never had a PSA 9 and probably never will. Hopefully one day the set will be complete in PSA 8. May end up being 8's and 7's though - we'll see. Buying many 9's would kill any chance of finishing the set - buying star cards in 8 may even be impossible. No deep pockets here. Like Mick and Kieth said: "Time is on my side" - maybe a little more on my side than theirs! Rick

qmayer · January 20, 2003 2:26PM

I look at 8s and 9s in two ways. When I submit and get 9s, I figure I could sell them for that 400% premium and buy ~4 8s. Get's me closer to finishing my set (I think Davalillo does this too). And second, the eye appeal between an 8 and a 9 isn't worth that 400% increase in price to me. Being a guy in college with little disposable income, I have to get the biggest bang for my buck. 8s will do.

Justin

braves72078 · January 20, 2003 2:34PM

Heck,

You have the right idea. Just enjoy the hobby and the time with your son!!!!!!
That's what its about. When my son and I open those PSA boxes, just the thrill on his face makes my day, even if the cards are not to our expectations it is still great fun and isn't that what our hobby is susposed to be FUN?????????

Billy

wolfbear · January 20, 2003 4:44PM

Good posts ! I started out thinking that I would collect all my sets in straight psa 8.

Now, I've found that the cards from some sets look just fine to my eye in psa 7,
while the cards from other sets look distinctly better in 8 than 7.
For cards from other sets, 8's don't seem quite good enough, so gotta splurge for the 9's and 10's.

So, I think it depends on how the cards in the set look, to the collector, in the various grades.

FB · January 20, 2003 9:33PM

John,

I don't have any space consideration and consider myself as having a pretty good eye for raw cards. So, I'll buy raw wherever I can and send in to PSA. I'll keep whatever I get graded 5 and higher and look to pick up cheap PSA 9's on eBay when I can. To me - 8's are winners. And if I got rid of all the PSA 8's in my 72 set, I'd have over 200 holes that I'm not sure that I'll ever be able to fill. I'm betting that 2 years from now, I'll still have 50 or more 8's that either haven't graded 9 yet - or were too pricey to pick up.

So, I guess for me - 8's are great - especially when I get them graded myself. And 9's are a nice to have - but not at any cost.

braves72078 · January 20, 2003 10:35PM

Another consideration : A PSA 7 is a NEAR MINT CARD

Basilone · January 20, 2003 10:46PM

Technically a NM card...BUT in the world of graded cards for the 60's and 70's...they are looked down upon and are deeply discounted.

I simply do not know many collectors who are happy when they get 7's back from submittals.

John

uniship · January 20, 2003 11:28PM

Of course it's all relative to the set and your goals and your budget, but for me, at least with pre 1960 cards, I love the idea of having "museum pieces". Real rarities that may very well remain so scarce that you can always say, this is one of only 3 in the world. That, combined with the actual thought of just how a card that old can survive in that condition for so long, just seems fascinating. My 2 cents.

jackstraw · January 21, 2003 12:17AM

nothing floats my boat more then a super sharp,perfectly centered card either it be an 8,9 or 10. i agree with uniship its nice to own a museum quality stuff. on the other hand how many people other than yourselves look at your cards?i think i have shown maybe 2 people my cards in the past year but i have looked part or all just about everyday.
my family,guys at work,neighbors,old and new friends and the local post office think i am nuts.i am a slabaholic and proud of it

.

bleacherbum · January 21, 2003 1:12AM

I'm currently working on most of the Topps sets from the 70's. Although I'm in this for collecting, I'd like to think if or when I need to sell I'll get back at least what I put into it so I've put a line in the sand on grades. From 1975 and prior I'm very happy with PSA 8's and with 1977-1979 I'm looking for 9's. My thinking is that late 70's cards in 8's are worth less than the holder they are in and with the number of cards on the market they'll be difficult to sell. That being said, I still like to sprinkle my early 1970's sets with a few 9's.

On another note, I just recently submitted several T206's and I don't care what grade they receive. I just think they're cool because they're so old!

Steve

LuxuryWines · January 21, 2003 2:41AM

<< my family,guys at work,neighbors,old and new friends and the local post office think i am nuts.i am a slabaholic and proud of it >>

Jack Straw Great Quote I know how you feel ... You should add that to your tag line Jeff

PlayBall · January 21, 2003 3:09AM

<< I simply do not know many collectors who are happy when they get 7's back from submittals. >>

Depends on your wallet, and the set you collect. I am thrilled with 7's, and if I get an 8, well, I won't go into detail on that.

Basilone · January 21, 2003 3:15AM

Playball-

I agree with you...but also in the post (right before the quote), I mention the graded card world of the 1960's and 70's. 50's and Pre-War are a whole different story.

John

BBCI · January 21, 2003 4:59AM

John,

A great question. I have been mulling this answer over for several months now. I started out attempting to build many different sets in PSA 7 and 8 from 1887 thru early 1970s. I have found that more and more people are building/registering sets and that prices have begun dropping a bit for PSA 7s and 8s. I have since moved to PSA 8s and PSA 9s. From what I can remember (about 1 year ago), PSA 9 commons in the early 1960s (1962 & 1963 in particular) could be had for between $75 - $125. Now, they are consistently going for $125 - $200 and more (despite increased populations). I know we have debated this topic before, but I believe there is not much out there in terms of high quality raw cards pre-1972/3. Thus, I believe 9s will continue to rise. I will even go out on a limb here and argue that PSA 9 commons in the early 1960s could reach $500 - $1000 in a few years - not drop in value like many contend. I look at the 1952 set and see PSA 8s in the $300 - $800 range and can only assume that as the raw material dries up the prices will rise for high end material from the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s. In short, buy 9s.....and a few 8s to fill out the collection.

Don

theBobs · January 21, 2003 5:37AM

Completed 1965 Topps PSA 9 auctions

I found these results very interesting. Based on BBCI's post, I checked 1965 as that was a set I previously collected. Notice several 1/1 cards not even receiving a single bid at reasonable openings. Strangely, these are DSL auctions. Why is this the case? Is the 1965 set lacking buyers currently (Zeder and Wayne are gone, Skipm. is around every so often, Duke is complete, etc.)? Are people reluctant to purchase high grade from DSL? Were all of the 1965 set collectors on holiday during the auction? I can't make any conclusions, but the list is certainly interesting.

I know 1965 isn't "early 60s", but now seems to be a good buying opportunity in 1965 if one is bullish on PSA 9 commons.

Basilone · January 21, 2003 5:51AM

BBCI-

If you are who I think you are...you sir...have one helleva collection...Congratulations. If I am mistaken, regardless, very interesting post and sound advice. Thanks.

The Bobs-

Remember the good ol' days when 1965 PSA 9's were going for $100-300 each. I haven't seen Skipm. around in quite a while...not sure if he is still collecting 65's. Yes, Zeder and Wayne are gone and the Duke has his hands in all sorts of high-end sets. There are still a couple of "rogue collectors" out there who have not registered their sets, but they do not seem to be getting alot of competition. I do not think it is DSL as much as the secondary market for graded sets. Maybe some of the guys are taking a "wait and see" approach and will buy the next time that elusive PSA 9 comes around at a fraction of the initial offering. Who knows I could be the next to step up to the PSA 9 plate.

John B.

carew4me · January 21, 2003 6:19AM

I have been collecting for 20 years now and I hated the whole idea of "graded cards".
What were these cards encased in plastic with huge price tags. You cant even touch and smell the cardboard.
(Yes I smell the cardboard, so what)

After too many years of standard dealer over-grading I saw the light.
I collect mainly pre-1970 so a PSA 7 was always fine for me.
My goal was to build vintage football sets in PSA 7 and reap the "deep discount" as some have alluded to and still get a great looking Nrmt card.

Along the way I have had the chance to buy whole lots or certain years from collectors and
have many PSA 8's in my collection.

I still just as happy with the 7's, but I like the middle ground as an investment that the PSA 8 gives me.

PSA 9 and up are totally over-rated, I'll will take one, dont get me wrong, but if you crunch the
numbers, it doesn't make sense.

I buy 7's at %50 smr and 8's at %75 SMR and I have done fine.

uniship · January 21, 2003 7:15AM

"(Yes I smell the cardboard, so what)"

Hilarious! If it makes you feel any better, I smell the card stock too. It makes the old age come to life, and completely adds to the hobby. You are not wierd! You are a seasoned connisseur of vintage artwork - baseball cards!

Eric the card smeller

BigKidAtHeart · January 21, 2003 1:43PM

I would rather have the 500 PSA 8's in my collection
as I am a collector not a dealer.
(and in vintage stuff nice 6 or 7 will do me nicely!)

Now if I was a dealer, then screw the 8s.. and
briing on the 9's and 10's (that is where the $'s at)

Would you rather have a bunch of 8's or a few 9's ?

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