pitcher injuries, my thoughts
olb31
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a dozen or more pitchers have had to have major surgeries that require a year or more healing. why does this seem to be happening so much. my opinion:
1) curveballs - start throwing them too young. at 11 years old, many pitchers are throwing curveballs.
2) lack of pitching - much like lack of contact in football causes more concussions and poor tackling form, the less often you pitch, could cause issues when getting back to throwing 100 mph for 100 or more pitches.
it really seems like the older guys from the 50's 60's and 70's and older could throw as much as they wanted to.
Work hard and you will succeed!!
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Curve balls dont get thrown a ton anymore, sliders are the new prom queen. Teams reward velocity and want everyone throwing sliders and throwing them a lot. Older pitchers threw mostly fastballs, now its mostly breaking stuff and not many throw a changeup. Its so extreme now Austin Adams throws over 90% sliders as a MLB reliever.
Growing up for the last couple decades you could easily be playing a 100+ game schedule as a kid on the travel teams playing year around. The best pitchers on these teams generally get abused by their coach. The guys that go to college get abused by a lot of the college coaches whose job is on the line and they dont care what happens to you after you leave especially if you make regionals. Some of the big programs are better about it as they know it impacts recruiting, but Rice as one example just absolutely abused their 3 first rounders in their College WS run.
Then once you get to the pros you have teams saying just go out there and throw as hard as you can every pitch. You basically have to be a future hall of famer for a lot of teams to let you see lineup a 3rd time now so youll be coming out either way because the computers say not to let a pitcher see a lineup 3 times even if theyre shoving with a reasonable pitch count.
You really have to look at guys from the 80s on. TJ surgery wasnt even an option until the mid 1970s. Before that guys just had to either gut it out, take a bunch of drugs to gut it out, or they would retire and youd never hear about it. The average velocity and how people pitch has increased it, but there were a lot of guys in the 50s and 60s that had the injury and just washed out of the league without people knowing that was the reason. The pitch clock being as short as it is is going to increase the injuries as well.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
kershaw is a perfect example. he's thrown 9 innings in the last 20 days. if he played in the 80's it would be at least double that. i've bee coaching travel baseball for 6 years. the kids start young throwing junk. my son throws 2 and 4 seam, change up and a cutter. he does pretty good, they hit a lot of pop ups off of him. but there are many smaller thinner kids who throw junk just to compete.
speed is definitely over rated need off speeds that are low and movement on your 2 seam is necessary. we will add another pitch in high school.
kershaw looks done what a pitiful performance. looked like he was throwing batting practice. didn't look prepared at all.
Speed is not overrated in MLB otherwise you would see half the guys throwing 75 MPH in MLB.
Two pitchers with equal control, movement, and off speed pitches, and one throws 100 MPH and the other 80 MP, there is simply no comparison. Having less time to react to a pitch is always harder.
As for youth baseball speed is not overrated either, IF they can throw it for strikes.
The kids that throw the hardest and have control in youth(age 10-12ish) baseball are typically always the best pitchers. They dominate.. As they get older they need breaking pitches as well(unless their speed is in 95+ then they need it at next level).
Youth is all about throwing strikes and changing speeds and those kids will be good at that level. But unless they add velocity their future is going to be limited because 75 MPH doesn't get it done on a consistent basis against MLB hitters (knuckleballrs aside), or against college hitters.
Spot on analysis.
Pitch clock will see. Gonna be hard to find out if that is causing more or just more guys opting for surgery quickly because the surgey is done effectively.
As per injuries?
If you don't want an arm injury, then don't throw a baseball.
You are not going to stop arm injuries when throwing a baseball at a high level. Some lucky few will go unscathed. Most won't. Some will have more serious injuries, some more on the minor side.
As pointed out above, pitcher injuries have been around since the overhand throw has been used. We just know about all of them now. Back then the player just faded away. Countless kids 'threw their arm out' way back when as well. Also add that there are X more humans around now you will have X more visible injuries just because of that too.
I think there is something to pitching more. Either more innings or more starts are maybe a little of both. I think without any doubt pitching them less innings, less pitches and less games is not securing longer careers.
If you can go out to the mound throwing a dead ball to batters who are chopping ground balls, then yes, it would be much more conducive to more starts, more innings, and longer careers because you don't have to throw quite as hard.
Do I think that MLB starters could throw more innings per start? Absolutely. Will it leaad to longer careers? I have no idea. Way too much luck involved. Luck as in some bodies will handle it and some won't...and not much anyone can do about that.
Why did Nolan Ryan do just fine throwing all those innings in a year? Why did Mark Fidrych not? Those examples through history are abound whether the norm was 250, 200 ,or 175 innings pitched.
All this talk about Koufax and he was done at 31 with an injured arm. So is him being a workhorse proof it can be done or was it the cause of injury and a cautionary tale he threw too much?
Starting in 2000, there was a big change in the complete game thinking. At that point rarely did anyone have over 6 CG. I think it happened around 20 times. 1999 most #1 pitchers had double digit CG. Since 2000, very few people have won 225 games. Verlander (rookie in 2005) 257 wins is the only one I know. Greinke has exactly 225 (rookie in 2002 or 2003).
These are drastic differences from the previous generation. Scherzer, Kershaw, are hurt all the time. Wainwright pitched 23 years to get 200. SO either the old guys were a hell of a lot tougher or there is something about pitching more.
Most of that is strategy driven and has nothing to do with what you are talking about. There is a proliferation of gas throwing bullpen arms, as well as an uptick in international arms, and they are being utilized more and more. None of the guys in other generations would be allowed to pitch 20 complete games now.
Guys were hurt all the time in the good old days of yesteryear too. You just don't know who they are, or reaiize they became bad because of injury and they got released or never made it.
You didn't answer my question above about Koufax or Fidrych.
Ever hear of Orel Hershiser? He pitched all those complete games during scoreless record. He pitched a complete game meaningless game at end of that regular season. He pitched on short days rest in the playoffs that year. He was injured soon after, missed a year, and never the same.
Ask yourself as a coach. Are you willing to be the one to stretch a kid's workload? If pitching more is the goal, what is stopping you from throwing your best two pitchers six innings every game?
Many of these arguments like "Pitchers never got hurt back then and they threw 300 IP," are wrong. They did, and they did often. You just didn't hear about them because for one, they weren't good at diagnosing what was wrong, so they didn't realize the extent. So they pitched, got shelled, and then were done. Mark Fidrych is a good example of this.
Then two, the media wasn't covering everything 24/7. It wasn't being reported. Now if someone gets a sliver, everyone knows. Back then some kid from Podunk wasn't a social media sensation that everyone knew. When Podunk Joe got hurt only his friends and family knew...but back to one, they really didn't know. They may have just thought he 'lost it'. Also many did have a "dead arm." "Threw his arm out." Those terms were common back then and they were common for a reason...because THEY DID GET HURT.
I would caution anyone in charge of young athletes to not to be so quick to buy into those fallacies above from 'back in the day'. While opinions and feelings about sports are usually harmless, in this case, take pause, because it could affect someone. Who wants to be the guy that said, "Back in the day they did it," and then have a kid on the surgery table as a result.
Kershaw hasnt thrown from injuries. > @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
It might be impossible to directly link the pitch clock to more injuries as theres always the excuse of sliders and added velocity, but psychologically it adds up. The super quick MLB clock times increase fatigue which makes it more likely for injury and a break down of mechanics being tired which does the same. It may not wipe out the league, but its definitely increasing the risk of injuries. Players have been wanting it extended but have no power to do anything about it. It really doesnt make sense that they decided to be 5 seconds faster than college is just so they can risk multimillion dollar pitchers for another minute of commercials a game
Missouri 14 OSU 3
@olb31
Here is an excerpt about Smoky Joe Wood's career being cut short due to an ailing shoulder injury, and how he tried to pitch and was shelled. Then he was done.
Notice how they say at the end that the deadball era was filled with pitchers who were injured.
This excerpt below is about Joe Wood...and he was 25 years old
From The Society of American Baseball Research:
"Those fears were confirmed in early October when Joe was seen clinging to his shoulder in pain in his final start of the summer, a 3-1 loss to Walter Johnson. He did not factor into Boston’s 4 games to 1 World Series victory over Philadelphia two weeks later.
Refusing to accept a cut in pay, in 1916 Joe remained at home in Twin Lakes, Pennsylvania, working out at a New York University gymnasium while tending to his ailing arm under the care of New York Chiropractor A.A. Crucius. In February of 1917, his contract was sold to Cleveland for $15,000. “My arm is just as good as it ever was,” he announced at camp a month after the sale. “I don’t expect any trouble at all, provided I don’t work it too fast now.” Wood could not have been more mistaken. At his debut in Cleveland on May 26th, he was shelled by the Yankees in eight innings of work, and three weeks later sportswriters revealed that, in all probability, he was through as a pitcher. “It is a wonder you have any arm left,” Joe’s physician, Dr. Robert Drury, scolded publicly. Wood refused Indian owner Jim Dunn’s offer to keep him on in an advisory role and removed himself from the club payroll in early July.
The Deadball Era is replete with story upon story of pitchers whose careers were cut short by shoulders torn to shreds; rarely, if ever, did such men make or even contemplate a return to the diamond."
I do agree that throwing more is not the answer especially with youth players. I didnt make the MLB but did play professionally after college and also coached many years at different levels. Just throwing more ris rarely the answer. When you talk about pro starters or high level college starters they are throwing basically every day. They have their start take a day off and do lifting and bullpen days. Theres more stress throwing in a game than a bullpen. Many of them especially the best use monitors while working out and sleeping to decide what they should be doing that day based on how their body recovery has responded with personalized nutrition and training.
I cant even count the number of times coaching I saw a youth pitcher throw 100+ pitches get taken out and then be a catcher or SS both before pitch counts were implemented and after it. Throwing more as a pro or high level college player can work in instances, but its also monitored a lot. What a 14 year old does probably wont make a difference at that time, but a couple years later its catches up with how many more innings and how those happen are with the youth program which does lead to added injuries later on.
Velocity is certainly a contributing factor. The harder you throw and more max effort the more stress is put on the arm. The injuries in the pros arent because they arent throwing enough, its a combination of more stress put on throughout their youth and what gets you promoted in the minors. You dont have to throw 100 every pitch, but if you cant light the radar gun up if you want to most organizations wont promote you especially not as a righty. The minors for a lot of teams are more about what you can do not just what you do. Theres plenty of guys that get guys out or hit for a high average but wont get called up because the power or velocity isnt what they want.
Its also very true that bullpen arms are kind of like the NFLs version of running backs. There are a few elite ones but theres countless guys at big college programs that could step right in and just throw gas and sliders for an inning so teams arent really worried about it if they have to replace them.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
all good points.
just from the 70's i can name 20 pitchers maybe more that had 16 or more complete games every year. now it's zero. as i have ranted on other posts, there are a lot of relief pitchers that are over paid and not reliable. i would be in favor of a 6 man rotation where the starters (if the score is close) to go 7 innings or more each start and limit the bullpen. kershaw could have won 25 more games without a sorry bullpen. not high on paying 10 m on a lefty reliever who is just average or worse.
the guys are in the bullpen because they aren't good enough to be starters, for the most part.
Its not zero, theres multiple pitchers with complete games every year. Alcantara lead the NL in complete games the last two years and is now having TJ surgery.
In high school or youth baseball guys go to the bullpen because the best pitchers are used as starters. At high level college or professional baseball that is not the case. They are in the bullpen because that is where they are most effective and you have to have a bullpen. Even in the dead ball era Walter Johnson had over 100 starts that required the bullpen
Missouri 14 OSU 3
In the case of Fidrych, he came back from a knee injury too soon and was immediately throwing complete games. Even in 1977, people thought Ralph Houk was crazy for having Fidrych throwing so much so soon. He tore his rotator cuff and it was not properly diagnosed until 1985. Had the injury been diagnosed in 1977 - or 1978 or 1979 - he likely would have continued playing.
The bullpen doesn't blow as many leads as you think. They always show the ones they blow so it skews things. Check out the save percentage league wide for closers, you may be surprised.
You have to look how many starters give up a lead late as well. They blow leads when kept in as well.
Fans have it perfect, if the starter blows the lead, they say, "should have taken him out."
If the bullpen blows the lead they say, "should have kept the starter in."
The reality is the bullpen has given up less runs than the starters and starters blow leads too(probably more).
This year in MLB the starters ERA is 4.45. The bullpen is 4.17.
Starters have thrown 24,948 IP
Relievers have thrown 18,104 IP
That spread in IP is getting closer and closer as you pointed out, but still the bullpen has maintained the better ERA.
For comparison in the year 2000
Starters threw 28,756 IP with a 4.87 ERA
Relievers threw 14,488 IP with a 4.58 ERA
Back then the bullpen had a better ERA as well though they threw less innings.
Taking starters out after an effective four innings is questionable, but after 7, with as many lights out arms as there are in the bullpen, those guys are just as good or better than most starters for an inning or two, and the league ERA shows it.
There is a parade of six foot five monsters coming out of the pen throwing 97.
Zero have 16 or more complete games each year.
Better medicine/diagnosis now. he would have pitched a few more years if he played in the 2000's.
Possibly, but most likely not effectively. Damage was done. Point is, Fidrych goes against that thought of "pitching more is good for your health," along with countless other pitchers through time who have shown the same.
What is the point?
If the game is finished by another arm just as good or better, what is the difference? Bullpen ERA is better than starters. The top bullpen arms are better than almost all starters for an inning or two.
There is now a supply of high level arms that make it possible.
Is it less enjoyable to not see complete games? For many yes. Can't argue enjoyment.
I think throwing more in youth, as pitchers do today, is detrimental to a growing body. in older times, kids played different sports as the seasons changed so arms could rest during the off season. now, kids are throwing all year long. it is taking a toll on arms.
Now I do think there is something to professionals throwing more. bullpens, long toss etc. pitchers not too long ago were throwing 250-275 innings at max effort. Unit, schilling, clemens, kevin brown, nolan ryan etc were all throwing just as hard as the guys do today, but also throwing complete games and many more IP. it can be done.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thats all HOFers or guys that should be in the HOF other than maybe Brown. For every one of them there were 1000s of failed guys and 1000s of guys in the league that werent doing what they did over their careers. This idea that somehow pitchers are throwing less today is just a fallacy.
Using two of the best pitchers of all time with Johnson and Clemens is not a reflection of the league. These guys were the exception. Pitchers were not throwing on average 200+ innings in those times and 5th starters could get jobs for being able to do so and just punt the 5th game to rest the bullpen and try and win games when the 1-3 or 1-4 starters were pitching.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Exactly. Openers are stupid, pulling a starter thats shoving in the 4th because they shouldn't see a lineup again is dumb with no feel of the game, but there is no value to a complete game running up the pitch count. Theres a lot of data that pitchers over a 120 pitch count and even 110 have residual negative effects on their next starts.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
are there no hall of famers playing today? or in the last few years? there have been no 250 inning starter since 2011. not one. and yes, 200 inning starters were pretty common in the 90s. even in the 00s.
how do you figure the idea that pitchers are throwing less today a fallacy? it seems pretty factual to me. across the board complete games are way way way down. starters across the board are throwing considerably fewer innings. it is undeniable. they are either refusing or management is refusing to let them pitch. either way, pitchers today should be just as capable as those of the near past.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don't think they were. I think they managed their effort with an eye toward maximizing their innings
The pitchers I listed above were max effort Pitchers: Ryan, Clemens, Johnson, Schilling, Brown, Seaver etc.
I understand, these were the best of their generations. All were throwing between 200-275 innings/season. in the cases of Ryan and Seaver, more. Pitch counts were high as well. All of those guys threw just as hard as current starters. All were max effort.
there should be 3-5 guys at least pitching today who can throw 200-275 IP a season. Verlander was the last to throw over 250 innings 12 seasons ago.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It can be done. It isn't done because of strategy. Sometimes the strategy works, sometimes it doesn't. They know over the long haul that the bullpen strategy works more, and that is why they do it.
I don't know if the strategy being used today is most optimal though. I think there should be more selective instances where they ride the starter a little longer, and of course it should be based on how good your pen is, and how good that starter is.
the bullpen route requires more of the roster to be taken up with pitchers. when starters eat up more innings, it frees up those spots for other players.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
me and you think alike.
Out of the guys you listed, Ryan is the only one I'd say was a max effort guy. Johnson, Clemens, etc., all "held something back" for later innings. Justin Verlander is an example of a more recent pitcher that does that. Have seen multiple starts of his where he was humming along at 94 early on and then 100 in the 8th and 9th.
Clemens. Johnson, Schilling, Brown were not max effort guys. Brown was throwing sinkers a lot, Johnson was max effort early in his career and toned it down to improve his control, Clemens pitched in the low to mid 90s as did Schilling and both could ramp it up at times when they wanted. Theres also thousands if not 10s of thousands of pitchers during that time that came no where close to their innings.
Other than teams like Tampa with their openers and just pulling guys left and right theres not a massive difference in innings. The innings are not equal and pitch count plays a major role. Not every throw has to be in a game either, pitchers spend a lot of time working in pitching labs throwing bullpens to hone their mechanics, their grips, to design pitches to get the spin and movement they want. LSU and Wake Forrest have MLB guys they go there to use their advanced labs. Its a different conversation but it is wild that colleges have better labs than pro teams.
Theres really no value in having a starter go 250+ innings over 190 or 200 making them throw too many pitches a game. Youre just increasing the chance of injury with a guy thats tired whose stuff is getting worse meanwhile theres a guy in the pen that throws 100 and is fresh. Bullpen guys have to get work to stay sharp as well. Closers sometimes come in with a big lead when they havent pitched in a week just to get some work in.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Whats the value of having 6 outfielders on the roster when 3 of them will never have any value in the game?
Theres a DH in both leagues now, pinch hitting isnt a thing anymore
Missouri 14 OSU 3
I dont know how much baseball you watched in the 90s, but the guys i mentioned were all throwing upper 90s and johnson and clemens could hit triple digits. I saw just about every clemens start for the red sox from about 1988-1996 and he was definitely a max effort guy. he was grunting and sweating every start. definitely not a low 90s guy. at least not until he hit 43 or 44. Unit was consistently upper 90s to 100 at times. Browns sinkers were mid 90s.
Clemens hit 280 innings one season. over 250 a number of other times. Unit also had some big inning seasons.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
$$$, middle relief pitchers make 12 - 15, extra catchers, inf and of make 6 - 8. after 3 of these you can get a good #3 or #4 starter.
If you can ramp it up you arent a max effort guy. I was playing in the 90s and well aware of all of them. Clemens was a beast with his legs, Johnson was just scary if you were a lefty as the ball started behind your head and he basically made it a little league mound by the time he let the ball go, Brown wasnt throwing as hard as he could for extra movement like Maddux did. They had gifted arms that were generational. I was playing back then and faced a number of first rounders and CY young contenders at various levels. Velocity doesnt automatically equal max effort. Theres a reason why we remember the names of special guys
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Middle relivers do not make 12-15 million a year and its not close. The majority of closers dont even make that. Back up catchers dont make 6 to 8 million a year either.
Extra pitchers have a far higher value than just having a bunch of position players sitting on the bench. You need some bench players and an extra catcher for sure, but you get a diminishing return if your roster is just stacked with them that wont see the field. You might need to use more bullpen guys, but if youre running out a 6th outfielder or 4th catcher theres much bigger problems that wont be overcome
Missouri 14 OSU 3