Have grading standards become more relaxed for Morgan dollars as opposed to Peace dollar?
This Morgan dollar is graded MS 66 but has a very busy chatter right in the cheek which is prime focal area and verified by CAC as well. Any thoughts?
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You're probably not going to be able to get much useful input with that particular image.
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Looks right to me.
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Some one please post the True Views.
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In answer to the question posed, no. And it’s highly doubtful that the grading of a single coin or even several coins will provide a reasonable basis for making such a determination.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I don't collect either but that coin is borderline 66 in my opinion.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin0 -
In my own biased opinion, a Peace dollar will usually grade about a point lower than a Morgan with a similar look. The percentage of each coin at each grade is more-or-less consistent with this in the pop reports.
“But Morgans were made better and Peace Dollars have strike issues.”
Yeah, whatever.
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I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exact
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/2099230 -
@jabba said:
I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exactIt would be an extremely rare occurrence for a reverse to help, rather than hurt a coin’s grade. It’s not especially unusual for a gem Morgan dollar to have an exceptionally nice reverse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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The cheek and neck look a little busy.
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Thank God for this thread. I am so confused by these two coins. The feedback I have gotten so far is that these are basically worth $20-$35/ea.
I don’t understand the grading process for either the Morgan nor the Peace $1. I can see the flaws on these, but I don’t understand how value is determined. If anyone wants to give me some input, feel free. I just love the look of both of these. I think they’re beautiful, regardless of value 🤷♀️
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@Dnice8 said:
Thank God for this thread. I am so confused by these two coins. The feedback I have gotten so far is that these are basically worth $20-$35/ea.I don’t understand the grading process for either the Morgan nor the Peace $1. I can see the flaws on these, but I don’t understand how value is determined. If anyone wants to give me some input, feel free. I just love the look of both of these. I think they’re beautiful, regardless of value 🤷♀️
Even if their condition were worse than it is, those coins should be worth a minimum of approximately $35 each. If someone told you $20 or even $25, either they didn’t know the market or they were trying to acquire them cheaply.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I didn’t share these with you in our email because of that 😐 If you think I should include them, let me know. I just assumed they weren’t worth grading.
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@Dnice8 said:
I didn’t share these with you in our email because of that 😐 If you think I should include them, let me know. I just assumed they weren’t worth grading.The 1922 isn’t worth getting graded, as it looks to be MS63 or lower. The others might not be worth getting graded, either, but I can’t necessarily eliminate them, based on what I can see. Feel free to email me any additional pictures that you want.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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You have to remember that Morgan/Peace silver dollars are heavier, therefore most grading companies are more forgiving when it comes to bagmarks/hits. When I look at this coin, I say to myself it has really great luster, really strong strike/details, and it has better eye appeal than MS65, but not an MS67 with the marks. You could argue MS65+, but MS66 is fair too.
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This coin is a PCGS 65+ for comparison.
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The cheek in the OP’s post seems to be very frosty and any mark is going to stand out. It’s hard to tell from the photos, but the chatter we are seeing may be very light, even though apparent. If so, not at all surprised that this coin graded 66/CAC.
Roseanne Barrett I - CAC Morgan Dollar Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (Retired)
Roseanne Barrett - CAC Basic Seated Liberty Type Set, Circulation Strikes
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I would think those are actually light grazes in the luster and not actually very deep in hand. To answer your question, they're pretty harsh on Morgans as a rule.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.1 -
Ive been collecting Peace $ for over 20 years... and Ive seen the recent grade inflation on Peace $ as well.
Mostly by 1 point, especially on common dates. MS65 has moved up to MS66 or even 66+ on 22, 23, 24
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I think the grading standards for Peace dollars has always been tougher than for Morgans. If a Peace dollar had that many scuffs and scrapes i doubt it would receive a 66 grade.
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I believe the standards are the same... the designs are assessed based on condition and the graders are trained in the process..... Such perceptions noted in the OP are demonstrations of inexperience in grading. Cheers, RickO
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I don’t see the grading standard for either series to have changed noticeably. I think that first coin is a solid 66. It has the 66 look to it.
I don’t think that peace dollars are graded more harshly as a rule. I think it is the design of the obverse and the general making of the coins that lends itself to lower grades.
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@BryceM said:
In my own biased opinion, a Peace dollar will usually grade about a point lower than a Morgan with a similar look. The percentage of each coin at each grade is more-or-less consistent with this in the pop reports.“But Morgans were made better and Peace Dollars have strike issues.”
Yeah, whatever.
You’re right but there is something to be said to the difference in manufacturing that leads to less luster on peace dollars and considering the impact luster has on grading (esp at PCGS) I bet some of the noted disparity in overall grades across the spectrum can be diagnosed to that. That and peace didn’t sit around as long not being messed with
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No
Investor0 -
You're probably right. The longer I collect, the more I am drawn to intense luster. That said, no amount of luster can make up for a bunch of ugly hits.... and some Peace dollars have tremendous luster.
Many Morgans in MS67 and a few in MS68 grades have hits on them that would forever condemn a Peace dollar to no higher than MS65/66, no matter how good it otherwise was.
Some of the extant MS67 Peace dollars would look rather impressive next to many of the MS68-graded Morgans.
Again, just my opinion. Morgans usually look overgraded to my eye by a point or so. My observation is that hits on Peace dollars are almost never forgiven, and on Morgan's they're frequently overlooked.
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You're probably right. The longer I collect, the more I am drawn to intense luster. That said, no amount of luster can make up for a bunch of ugly hits.... and some Peace dollars have tremendous luster.
Many Morgans in MS67 and a few in MS68 grades have hits on them that would forever condemn a Peace dollar to no higher than MS65/66, no matter how good it otherwise was.
Some of the extant MS67 Peace dollars would look rather impressive next to many of the MS68-graded Morgans.
Again, just my opinion. Morgans usually look overgraded to my eye by a point or so. My observation is that hits on Peace dollars are almost never forgiven, and on Morgan's they're frequently overlooked.
Agree. I also am drawn to intense luster. Won’t buy any coins without excellent luster and always looking for coins with more exceptional luster than I have
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@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exactIt would be an extremely rare occurrence for a reverse to help, rather than hurt a coin’s grade. It’s not especially unusual for a gem Morgan dollar to have an exceptionally nice reverse.
I was under the impression the grade was the total coin obverse and reverse
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/2099230 -
Have grading standards become more relaxed for Morgan dollars as opposed to Peace dollar?
Yes, if you're a peace Dollar Collector. No if you're a Morgan Dollar Collector. Remember - ownership is worth at least one grade.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.1 -
@jabba said:
@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exactIt would be an extremely rare occurrence for a reverse to help, rather than hurt a coin’s grade. It’s not especially unusual for a gem Morgan dollar to have an exceptionally nice reverse.
I was under the impression the grade was the total coin obverse and reverse
The obverse is weighted far more heavily than the reverse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I don’t think the standards are any different. It’s the nature of the respective designs… the eye simply “sees” the flaws on a Peace dollar more readily than on a Morgan dollar. As well, luster and (attractive) toning - overall eye appeal - clearly contribute to the coin’s eventual grade. A final thought… I’ve seen many Peace dollars granted high grades despite distracting milk spots, severe die cracks, cuts in the hair and along the eagle’s body and obvious reeding marks… all issues that are much more prevalent than they are with Morgans…
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@Pumpkinhead said:
I don’t think the standards are any different. It’s the nature of the respective designs… the eye simply “sees” the flaws on a Peace dollar more readily than on a Morgan dollar. As well, luster and (attractive) toning - overall eye appeal - clearly contribute to the coin’s eventual grade. A final thought… I’ve seen many Peace dollars granted high grades despite distracting milk spots, severe die cracks, cuts in the hair and along the eagle’s body and obvious reeding marks… all issues that are much more prevalent than they are with Morgans…The contrary. I think the you see the marks easier on the large facial area of the Morgan not Peace dollar. Maybe that’s what you really meant. That maybe creates the illusion of different grading
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@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exactIt would be an extremely rare occurrence for a reverse to help, rather than hurt a coin’s grade. It’s not especially unusual for a gem Morgan dollar to have an exceptionally nice reverse.
I was under the impression the grade was the total coin obverse and reverse
The obverse is weighted far more heavily than the reverse.
So if you have an MS60 obverse and a MS64 reverse... what should be the overall grade on the slab ? MS61 ?
Would an MS65 reverse raise it to an MS62 ?
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@TonerGuy said:
@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
@MFeld said:
@jabba said:
I think that grades getting a good kick from that reverse looks clean but photos are hard to be exactIt would be an extremely rare occurrence for a reverse to help, rather than hurt a coin’s grade. It’s not especially unusual for a gem Morgan dollar to have an exceptionally nice reverse.
I was under the impression the grade was the total coin obverse and reverse
The obverse is weighted far more heavily than the reverse.
So if you have an MS60 obverse and a MS64 reverse... what should be the overall grade on the slab ? MS61 ?
Would an MS65 reverse raise it to an MS62 ?
It would be easier to answer if I could view the coins first😉, but since I can’t..
Answer to 60/64: Most likely, the coin would grade 60, with a small chance of a 61.
Answer to 60/65: The coin would still probably grade 60, maybe 61 and no way it would 62.Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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The 1921-PDS Morgans are better to compare in this regard. Generally, my observation is that the TPGs have never been very consistent in grading Peace dollars.
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@Joey29 said:
@Pumpkinhead said:
I don’t think the standards are any different. It’s the nature of the respective designs… the eye simply “sees” the flaws on a Peace dollar more readily than on a Morgan dollar. As well, luster and (attractive) toning - overall eye appeal - clearly contribute to the coin’s eventual grade. A final thought… I’ve seen many Peace dollars granted high grades despite distracting milk spots, severe die cracks, cuts in the hair and along the eagle’s body and obvious reeding marks… all issues that are much more prevalent than they are with Morgans…The contrary. I think the you see the marks easier on the large facial area of the Morgan not Peace dollar. Maybe that’s what you really meant. That maybe creates the illusion of different grading
I was referring to more than just the facial area… I think the flatter, less “complex” design of the Peace dollar produces a larger “prime focal area” for the eye to take in. In addition, Morgans tend to have greater contrast between fields and devices, so marks/chatter on the cheeks of those coins are more apparent when light is directed at them. The grading services tend to get up “close and personal” with a coin submitted for grading… I believe, as collectors, our perspective is somewhat different…
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@Pumpkinhead said:
@Joey29 said:
@Pumpkinhead said:
I don’t think the standards are any different. It’s the nature of the respective designs… the eye simply “sees” the flaws on a Peace dollar more readily than on a Morgan dollar. As well, luster and (attractive) toning - overall eye appeal - clearly contribute to the coin’s eventual grade. A final thought… I’ve seen many Peace dollars granted high grades despite distracting milk spots, severe die cracks, cuts in the hair and along the eagle’s body and obvious reeding marks… all issues that are much more prevalent than they are with Morgans…The contrary. I think the you see the marks easier on the large facial area of the Morgan not Peace dollar. Maybe that’s what you really meant. That maybe creates the illusion of different grading
I was referring to more than just the facial area… I think the flatter, less “complex” design of the Peace dollar produces a larger “prime focal area” for the eye to take in. In addition, Morgans tend to have greater contrast between fields and devices, so marks/chatter on the cheeks of those coins are more apparent when light is directed at them. The grading services tend to get up “close and personal” with a coin submitted for grading… I believe, as collectors, our perspective is somewhat different…
I understand your point. In I think for the same grade Morgan’s are mostly going to look less clean contact mark to the eye. So a ms 65 Morgan will look equivalent to a ms 64 peace dollar often times
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I saw an 1884-O online graded MS67 and it still had light scraping on the high points. Maybe PCGS is a bit more lenient towards Morgans because they sat in bags longer, therefore they got more bag marks?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
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I would be happy with that coin.
Probably better in hand.
It is not a rare coin so that probably helped.
I like the strike, the reverse, and the fields.
If I am buying it's a 65.
If I am selling it is a 66.
Split the difference 65+Not a crackout candidate
I am comfortable with Morgans, but been humbled more than once with my Peace grades.
Don't see them as apples to apples.
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@Joey29 said:
@yspsales said:
I would be happy with that coin.Probably better in hand.
It is not a rare coin so that probably helped.
I like the strike, the reverse, and the fields.
If I am buying it's a 65.
If I am selling it is a 66.
Split the difference 65+Not a crackout candidate
I am comfortable with Morgans, but been humbled more than once with my Peace grades.
Don't see them as apples to apples.
Do you think gold sticker chance?
Find one with a gold sticker.
Don't play the upgrade/crackout/sticker game.
Keep it and let others take the risk.
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What's with the deleted messages?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled0 -
@hummingbird_coins said:
What's with the deleted messages?Posted accidentally
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I am not a CAC specialist...
Buy what you like.
CAC is just another opinion
Find shows and look at thousands of coins
Buy CAC coins and develop an eye
If you can't discern a difference you need to repeat the above steps.I love a treasure hunt but random coins and forum opinions are a lose lose IMHO
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