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Thank you Zohar and the origins of WishView

SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭✭
edited October 3, 2021 3:45AM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

Today, while chatting online with a dealer friend about various issues, he suddenly showed me a true gem example of the essential crown for every self respecting Greek collector, the 1833 5 drs, the first (modern) Greek crown , without mint marks, struck in Munich.

I had observed that the past two years, an unusual number of high grade examples of this crown had appeared in the market, in numerical grades ranging from high AUs to even MS65 grades (although the vast majority was in between the two and up to 63) and just before the virus stopped the viewing of the lots of a local auctioneer (who continued his auction’s online with no viewing at all) I’ve had the chance to see an MS64 and two MS65s, all in NGC holders, that were among the ugliest that I had ever seen, doctored, dipped or even harshly cleaned and yet instead of being in AU details (harshly or not) cleaned holders, they were graded MS65. Thé harshly cleaned in particular had an opening of 20-25% less than a similar example would have normally had in that particular auction, and at first no one bid on it, but in the end, some poor fellow got it at the starting price. And this, during a very hungry period from collectors who did not hesitate to rely on pics alone, a very risky tactic when buying high end coins.But the strong market in the US is noticed in Europe too, especially for top or near topo grades.

The other ones I’ve only seen them online and some choice BU examples in shops and in hand too: they were all messed with.

As such, the pop reports give an entirely different image of the true gems that are all locked up in collections whose owners are unwilling to sell them and I’m referring now in particular to the NGC pop reports and not the ones by PCGS, especially everything added after 2006-2007 and maybe one or two at PCGS too.

Anyway, my friend, (not the one whose coins were stolen), whom I had visited the previous day to get something that he had received at Coinex by a friend in the US, showed me the TrueView of a coin that he had just purchased 39 mins ago. As soon as I saw it, I went to his website, making the purchase without paying straight away and I immediately jumped in the car to go see it in hand.

I was so stressed after missing so many other coins by this same dealer, because someone else had gotten to them first, that I missed the right exit, kept going on and had to return in a fast peripheral road of Athens.

1833, Greece 5 drachmai, PCGS MS 65, KM 20 pop 5, pop higher 2

During the 15 minute drive from my house to his shop, he also posted it on Facebook, but the coin appeared sold on his website because I , for once, had the chance to do it. He had already 4-5 serious requests, but the coin was gone! 😅

Before leaving , I’ve sent this picture to Zohar, whose opinion on crowns is essential, in other words his positive reply would have confirmed what my gut was already telling me but an eventual negative reply would make me requestion the entire thing. It is not only that they don’t come cheap, but also the very small number of such coins with original skin, luster, eye appeal, untouched, , compared to other identical and even higher numerical grades. But this one had it all. So I was sooooooo happy that Zohar had given it a big thumb of approval before I left. 😋

It will be the third such example that I buy for my collection, the first being a PCGS MS63+ now, that used to be an NGC old holder MS63 , too original and nice with only a light scratch below the truncation reducing it to 63(+), that I’ve upgraded with an NGC MS66 in early 2008, but with less eye appeal than the orevious one and only a gem at arm’s length as my agent had very well put it back then, a good 64 otherwise with strong luster.

I still have images of the previous two examples (within a span of 20 years), which I will post here so that you too can make the comparison.

First the ex NGC MS63, now in a PCGS MS63+ holder, imaged here by our friend Phil A, the head of PCGS’ TrueView and for years the first and and only photographer of PCGS’ TrueView section, which in many coins should have been called WishView.

In most superbly colored coins, the colors are there, but the saturation is so well done in the editing phase, that the coin in hand has little to do with the WishView. But not in this one above that has no colors, but just original skin , true patina and wonderful underlying luster, it was the real deal.

1833 5 drs (ex NGC MS63) PCGS MS 63+

This first coin was imaged just before he got the TrueView job that was first announced on a sunny Saturday in December 2004 in Athens, when Phil had just finished imaging my entire collection after a horrible 6 month period that he had spent in a bum freaking nowhere place in Germany as a part time English teacher in Berlitz. This was a change of plans! If I hadn’t invited him to Athens, all expenses paid from Germany and more, he would have been back to Canada. But then, he didn’t need much convincing to head straight to Newport Beach instead!

Phil was and is a graphic artist by trade but with an incredible talent in numismatic photography and the portfolio that he had created by imaging every single coin in my collection probably gave him the opportunity to make his first portfolio and with it, it is no wonder that he got the job hands down. All this with a $50 camera with a mini zoom that was activated by a push button, ie the lens was moving a few mm further aepway. No smartphones back then, but I did help him create his all important set up , by providing him with two architectural lights from my office and an empty house in a suburb by the sea,but that he must have had little time to enjoy given his amount of work. Yet, life pays you back in mysterious ways, other than the return ticket to Germany, the $1 fee per coin (edited too) the free stay with a nice view and a few other perks.

That first coin, was also featured in a special collage that Phil had made me of my entire 1833 set, from the copper one lepton to the gold 20 drachmai, the only date in the lifespan of King Otto with a full range of values, from the tiniest copper coin , through the silver to the elusive gold coin, in MS63 below.

And below is the one that replaced it and was sold circa 2016-2017 without a crown of that date up until now.

As for the new one,

,

it is now LOCKED UP IN HERE:

Dimitri



myEbay



DPOTD 3

Comments

  • Options
    ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    POTD.
    Congrats on this important pickup, I like it more than that 66. Hopefully I see it in hand one day in Athens!

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    SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭✭

    @Zohar said:
    POTD.
    Congrats on this important pickup, I like it more than that 66. Hopefully I see it in hand one day in Athens!

    Definitely ! 👍

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • Options
    ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Did everyone here goto sleep? You don't get better posts than this!

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    bidaskbidask Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭✭

    not asleep :) Im at disneyworld ..... ;)

    Quite a story SYRACUSION!

    I too thought it was well written post.

    I learned something about the 1833 5 drs, being the first (modern) Greek crown Cannot believe that NGC makes such grading mistakes.

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




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    Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fun post to read. Thanks for posting!

    Can you share some in hand photos of your new pickup?

    My current "Box of 20"

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    pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great coin! My (pattern) 1833 (presumably 5 Drachmai) from Munich doesn’t even compare.

  • Options
    SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2021 7:08PM

    @pruebas said:
    Great coin! My (pattern) 1833 (presumably 5 Drachmai) from Munich doesn’t even compare.

    It’s a different kind of coin and a very elusive one,me specially in this state of preservation. I rarely ever buy patterns and the Ertels in particular fall into their own category, as it is only the diameter, weight and metal content that served as a pattern for the coinage of Otto. Few collectors own them, or at least one denomination (usually the smaller copper ones) and these collectors are the ones that have already finished their quest for regular issued coins.

    It is a great example pruebas, among the nicest that I’ve seen, for whatever it counts because I haven’t seen or paid attention to most of them, and the word « most » is very relative here. There aren’t that many to begin with.

    @Bob13 said:
    Fun post to read. Thanks for posting!

    Can you share some in hand photos of your new pickup?

    Well, I don’t think that I can provide you with a picture better than the TruView, which in this example it is indeed as as good as it gets. My comments on some TrueViews that are far from reality were not addressed to this one, but mostly to colorful coins, which again and I insist on that, the colors are there, but by tweaking the saturation of each color, they appear way more attractive and uniformly colored than they really are.

    A prime example of these WishView coins is this KN specimen:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1059661/fs-british-west-africa-ex-king-norton-mint-collection.

    The confusion, in making the comment about how different a colorful coin’s TrueView and the real deal is, came up, because by telling the story of the three 1833 crowns that were part of my collection, one at a time, the first one had been imaged by Phil, before he got the job at Trueview, at a time when his photos were more realistic and the detail vs luster ratio were more equilibrated with his $50 camera than with all the ultra expensive gear that he has now.

    When I look at a TrueView, it is mostly the details of the coin that are accentuated with the luster taking a back seat. Unless it is a white coin, where he can do both,

    At the contrary, his initial amateur pictures, were much more équilibrated regarding the detail/luster dilemma. I’ve seen this happening to other talented photographers when they were upgrading their camera to semi professional levels.

    Here is the real look of a coin that Stack’s sold last summer ,the best of the three top pops that share this place at PCGS PR66.

    And below is its TrueView, where again, show me the luster, let alone the tweaking of the saturation.

    And the coin in its slab……

    It is yet another coin that does NOT look like its TrueView in hand, but still it’s perhaps close enough, just embellished as much as needed to get it sold. Not all coins can be videotaped at the moment.

    There are worse cases, such as the BWA example that was in the link that I provided from a summer thread, and if someone reads it, he will notice that ajaan already questions how close the coin will look compared to its WishView…. well, very little. All the colors are there, but heavier, messier and almost stopping the luster from breathing.

    AS FAR AS IT GETS

    But without colors, on totally white coins, (such as on this Peace dollar 1926 MS 67 below, that is coming up for auction soon) all the details will show along with the luster and in a coin like the one I just bought, the TrueView is identical to the coin itself, which has a more pronounced cartwheel luster that can only be shown by a video.


    This is ultra realistic too IMHO, alrgough on a coin of this caliber a look in hand is essential. But it feels as close to the coin as it gets….

    It is not a black and white matter and I ended up mixing the presentation of my new gem 1833 crown with the subject of how real or unreal TrueView images can get.

    Here’s another TrueView of a proof Turkish large coin. Below is the slab pictures of it, taken by myself…..identical ! AS GOOD AS IT GETS.


    FINALLY, AND SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION OF THE TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS, THIS TRUEVIEW OF THE COIN THAT I JUST BOUGHT IS AS CLOSE AS IT GETS TOO

    And who here remembers my first icon? 😜

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
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    pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SYRACUSIAN I don’t think that’s a pattern in the traditional sense of a proposed design. I believe Ertel was trying to sell minting equipment to the Greek government, and this piece was simply a demonstration that the machinery could strike Thaler-sized coins effectively. Note the material is silver-plated copper, so it was a low-cost demonstration.

    These are hard to find with the plating fully intact. On this piece, only a small piece is missing (to the right of the pillar).

  • Options
    SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭✭

    You are correct. I shouldn’t have spoken about the Ertels at all. 🥴

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
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