Collector's camaraderie question
desslok
Posts: 310 ✭✭✭
My fields of collecting are very narrow. I collect a specialized area of numismatics which is of no interest to most collectors, and in which items come up very infrequently. However, I'm not entirely alone in my field, and I know a few other collectors who are in competition with me over the same items. Despite the competition, we are actually friends with one another and enjoy showing off our findings and also consult with each another.
Now for the dilemma:
A desirable item is now offered in a local auction house. The item is rare enough that another example might not appear for years.
One of my collector friends sent me an email saying that he intends to bid on the item and that he "would thank me" if I did not compete with him.
How would you react to such a request?
(Just to clarify: the collector friend who sent this request is not a member of this board).
Comments
Depends on how presumptuously or tactfully he made the "request", I suppose, how much I wanted the item, and how much I valued his friendship. If that last was a factor, I'd discuss it openly with him.
Communication is key, as long as both parties acknowledge the importance of the friendship and their feelings about the potential competition.
If this is your core, and desired, I would openly indicate that your are eyeing the item yourself. He should understand as you both share the same interest. You would still be considered a great guy!
I agree - let him know you are also on terested in bidding.
8 Reales Madness Collection
That's a bit tough in some ways, but only because s/he put you in that position. I may not go out of my way to point out the auction to a friendly competitor but if the topic came up I would tell someone 'I'm bidding'. NOT, 'please don't bid against me'.
That's not fair to you or the consigner...who might have more of the whatever and sell a second one if the price of the first is honest. The last part might be wishful thinking but things do tend to come out of the woodwork if something sells well.
I think if it's a good friend and you really want it, you could do as @Zohar suggests. A friend would understand. A fake-friend will react poorly.
I think the other collector's request was out of line. If I was interested in the piece, I would bid on it.
So, he wants you to Bid Rig, essentially?
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
Sort of. He sent the same e-mail to at least one other person except me. I guess it's the opposite of shill bidding.
agreed!
Before we jump all over the other guy, I would think that as collectors we also want to ensure we get the coin at the best possible price. I routinely keep channels of communication open with other specialized 8 Reales collectors playing in the same field to ensure we don't drive up the price if we don't have to. These folks have the same auction searches up (at least the major ones) and know of the coins coming up anyway, so letting them know you're interested in a particular upcoming piece has been working well. The last time we didn't talk beforehand was when I went hard after an unattributed variety and ended-up paying 4x what it would have sold for if we didn't bid against each other.
8 Reales Madness Collection
@TwoKopeiki you hit the nail on the head. But what would you have done, had another collector contacted you ahead of that auction and asked you to back away from that particular piece, because he wanted it for himself at a cheaper price?
Open live auction? as said above, a true friend would only let you know that he is bidding.
solution: tell your "friend" you are interested also. this should be obvious for a rare item. all he is IMO, trying to do is rig the bidding. Not fair, but I believe at an auction everything is game. even some auctioneers sometimes have an unknown associate bid to "help some items along in the upwards bidding"
go to the auction, bid on the bottom end of the item and have someone else take over and finish your bidding. I believe it is called proxy bidding. perfectly legitimate. and your collector friend will never know what happened. If it ever comes up why you have this coin or how you got it, well, the successful bidder ( your proxy) eventually sold it to you much later.
This way, you keep your friendship and have the coin. you might have to pay a fee to a proxy person.
In Europe there are some "professional" proxies who take orders from interested parties.
@desslok I've had this happen, at which point I evaluated how much I wanted to spend on that particular coin knowing that there will be additional interest and bidding associated with it. If I wanted to spend close to the opening bid on it, I'd think about backing off. If I "needed to have it" - I would let the other collector know that I'm also interested and planning to bid. I don't think there's anything wrong with this approach.
8 Reales Madness Collection
If this was a good friend and he found it first, I would step aside. If he was just an acquaintance and I really wanted the item, too, I'd kindly talk it over with him. I guess it all just depends. A lot of variables.
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I think a lot of it would depend on how much you value his friendship and want the piece. He is putting you and others in an awkward position.
What will he do to "thank" you?
Some friends will share ownership of a piece like the recent US 1804 Dexter Dollar and others.
One potentially awkward result of saying yes is that for every desirable piece in the future perhaps only one in your group could bid on it and you would choose using something like a rotation, or like a draft for picking players for sports teams.
+1. I'd let the other person know I was interested in bidding as well.
This is kinda tough, however you could counter with a 'No Thanks are needed because I intend on bidding on it Good Buddy'
Hope all works out for ya
Steve
I was recently in a similar situation and we resolved it via email. For us, it was a desire to root for each other, whose collection has the better fit, and who was willing to pay more.
For this unnamed coin, it's roughly a tie on the "fit" issue. The tie breaker was that I was willing to pay almost double what my friend was willing to pay.
But, it all started with a discussion rooted in wanting to do the right thing for each other.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Honestly, I would not want to be a part of a "planned" auction strategy between potential bidders. I think your friend put you in a bad position by mentioning it and then requesting that you hold off on bidding. I would bid whatever I was willing to pay and let the chips fall where they may. Whether you tell him or not is up to you, but I would not feel compelled to tell anyone who put me in that position what my intentions were.
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
That's right. I think it fair generally asking if you have interest yet imposing by asking if you can sit it out. A direct indication of interest without an indication of price level etc is appropriate. The closer the relationship is, the less likely this will be an issue.
I'd be honest and open with him. It's up to you guys if you want to cooperate on some level. Your friend is in no way entitled to your coooperation.
A lot of us have been in bidding situations where we would have saved a lot of money if it wasn't for 1 other person, so I understand the struggle.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
You likely have the option of leaving a maximum bid with the auction house. And if your max bid is exceeded, then you can at least feel you gave it a reasonable shot under the circumstances. Just something to consider. And this approach seems fair across the board to everyone.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Maybe you are willing to pay more for the item than your friend. You should communicate further. Perhaps you can work out a deal where he will be the one to back down.
All is fair in love and war
I would bid even harder and stronger
That would be a complete antithesis of camaraderie.
8 Reales Madness Collection
A similar thing happened to me with an extremely rare coin of which I have not seen any examples show up in 15 years. A fellow collector contacted me and convinced me it was a better fit since it would complete his collection and he was willing to go any amount to win it. I got a promise from him to sell the piece to me at a favorable price if he ever found another one and he agreed. Fast forward 5 years and I hear from another collector that he paid a ton of money to purchase the same coin from the guy. I strongly advice against not bidding and should bid your highest. From then I don't entertain such requests and politely decline.
Anyone (unless he's very close to you, like a father or grandfather) who tells you he'd sell you a coin at a favorable price in the future is lying. No one will do that. If he were honest with you, the best he should've been willing to do for you is to offer you first right of refusal.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
If you are put in a bind by this, and you feel the need for anonymity . Try getting someone on the floor to bid for you.
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This is a gentleman's hobby and there are gentleman's agreements all the time. Like you, I know many of the people in my small obscure corner of collecting.
There's a fine line between these agreements and bidders' collusion, so most of the time it goes unspoken.
But it's frequently done.
If there is true respect between collectors, there should be no animosity if they both want to bid.
I have been hesitating to comment on this thread. I did this 1 time. I agreed to back off a coin and the other guy agreed to back off mine. His coin went 1st and he was pushed way high. He had asked what I was willing to bid on the coin I wanted. He was not willing to go that high. Well...the arsehole bid me up to my max bid and cost me nearly a grand. This was on ebay. He said he forgot to cancel an esnipe...yeah right(this was 5 days before the ending). Even denied he was the one that contacted me even though I had his message on my answering machine! Took 4 or 5 years for that row to finally get swept under the carpet.
Now I don't care who you are...I won't even express an interest if you ask....it's all fair game if I want it!
Bid it up to what you would consider wholesale, if he wants it more than you, he can pay more, if not, you get a deal
Thank you everyone that replied. I've decided I'm going to bid anyway, so the question that remained in my mind was should I let him know or not.
Based on the replies I got here, I decided to send him a polite e-mail saying that while I respect his opinion, I am interested in the piece and considering bidding. In hindsight, the e-mail might not have come out quite as polite as I originally intended
Quite to my surprise, he replied a day later, and he said that while he is still going to bid anyway, if he doesn't win, he would be happy to see me getting it and not a stranger. So we're all good for now. The auction is in about 10 days, so we'll see what happens.
Who are these people that suggest you staying out of budding on something so it's better for them considered camaraderie at all? I'm sticking to " oh thanks, I'll bookmark that and buy it if I want".
These type of folks arnt your friends. Come on, sounds like a jerk move and sets off my hair trigger BS detector instantly.