Where are thou host holders in upcoming NYINC sale?

marcmoish · October 31, 2016 8:39AM

HA mailed out a drool quality full color mailer last week with some gorgeous items coming up in January (NYINC). I noticed each and every piece in an NGC holder, not even one in our host holder.

So what's the deal with this? I have no issue buying either TPG - originally years ago preferring our host only - have since morphed into both being equal in my eyes, and rightfully so.

Why are they still so behind both being equal? Are they darkside blinded or just silly? And why does our host NOT even have a table to accept coins altogether at NYINC?

pruebas · October 31, 2016 9:19AM

They used to have a table at NYINC. They no longer do?

I don't think they accepted submissions there, however.

coinkat · October 31, 2016 2:18PM

I have submitted coins to our host at NYInt but it has been a couple years. I have always seen a table, but this show has run at the same time of the FUN show in FL. Perhaps it is about being spread too thin

marcmoish · November 1, 2016 8:13AM

I thought this would illicit more responses - I guess not - perhaps these are dead issues or non-starters, so I will let it die and move on.

Zohar · November 1, 2016 1:02PM

I saw both TPG tables at NY show. Perhaps NGC more active on world and ancient side of things.

And marcmoish - we love ya!

brg5658 · November 1, 2016 1:09PM

I also noticed this -- gave it about 10 seconds thought, shrugged my shoulders, then went on with my day.

All things being equal, I prefer my world coins in NGC plastic anyway...

1960NYGiants · November 1, 2016 3:10PM

This past show the PCGS table was attended by a women from the Paris office. PCGS was not accepting submissions.

However, the NGC table had a crew of 4 or 5 and was very busy accepting submissions.

Observations made during my Friday visit.

atom · November 1, 2016 3:17PM

For what it's worth, in speaking with a prominent European dealer I was told that world coins are preferred in NGC.

pruebas · November 1, 2016 3:37PM

@atom said:
For what it's worth, in speaking with a prominent European dealer I was told that world coins are preferred in NGC.

Not by me. I've seen too much crap in NGC holders. Not to mention overgraded coins.

But then again, the percentages may be the same, even if the absolute numbers are higher.

marcmoish · November 2, 2016 8:00AM

I believe I got my answers now.

Jackthecat1 · November 2, 2016 9:16AM

I guess I briefly noticed the PCGS table last January with one person sitting there and nothing happening. The NGC table was fully staffed and very busy. I prefer my World coins raw either way.

bkzoopapa · November 2, 2016 11:38AM

HA is a major stock holder in NGC I believe, and they are putting their money where their pockets are. They are also using them for the currency grading for the auctions

brg5658 · November 2, 2016 12:22PM

@bkzoopapa said:
HA is a major stock holder in NGC I believe, and they are putting their money where their pockets are. They are also using them for the currency grading for the auctions

I believe you mean a major investor/financial backer.

NGC isn't a publicly traded company, and thus doesn't have "stock holders".

bkzoopapa · November 2, 2016 2:39PM

Just because it is private does not mean it does not have stockholders. I don't know what the corporate set up is, but HA has financial interests in it.

Zohar · November 2, 2016 2:46PM

That's nonsense. If you look at the US coin side of Heritage you probably see 4:1 times pcgs coins. They are simply more committed to world coins at NGc

brg5658 · November 2, 2016 4:53PM

@Zohar said:
That's nonsense. If you look at the US coin side of Heritage you probably see 4:1 times pcgs coins. They are simply more committed to world coins at NGc

I agree it's nonsense, I was just clarifying that NGC doesn't have shareholders in the sense that PCGS does.

Heritage has auctioned several large collections graded solely by NGC (e.g., all of Newman), but they also auction a ridiculous number of PCGS coins. It is what it is.

pruebas · November 2, 2016 5:38PM

NGC may have shareholders, but it's not a publicly traded company, so you or I couldn't buy them unless the shares were offered/sold to us.

My small business had shareholders--just me and my officers.

And HA does have a financial interest in NGC, but for US coins, the market demands PCGS, so they oblige.

brg5658 · November 2, 2016 6:21PM

@pruebas said:
NGC may have shareholders, but it's not a publicly traded company, so you or I couldn't buy them unless the shares were offered/sold to us.

My small business had shareholders--just me and my officers.

And HA does have a financial interest in NGC, but for US coins, the market demands PCGS, so they oblige.

In general (except in some situations where consignors get > 100% of hammer), HA get's their 17.5% on every sale regardless of the brand of plastic. It would be in their best interest to sell coins in the holders that are most desired by the different markets (maximum auction price). And, if no such "preference" exists, then they'd sell both main TPGs about equally.

I never heard anyone bring up why all of the Pogue sell coins were slabbed by PCGS...different strokes for different folks.

Zohar · November 2, 2016 7:00PM

Scanned the web to see whether ownership is conflicted as implied - i.e. if an auction house owns NGC and could not find any reference. The website states complete independence - https://ngccoin.com/coin-grading/introduction-to-ngc/

If someone has any reference to such ownership by Heritage, I would appreciate the heads up. This would have been common industry knowledge one would think.

brg5658 · November 2, 2016 7:10PM

@Zohar said:
Scanned the web to see whether ownership is conflicted as implied - i.e. if an auction house owns NGC and could not find any reference. The website states complete independence - https://ngccoin.com/coin-grading/introduction-to-ngc/

If someone has any reference to such ownership by Heritage, I would appreciate the heads up. This would have been common industry knowledge one would think.

In a December 2004 Forbes article, it was noted that Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy each own approximately 12.5% non voting stock in NGC (~ 25% of the company). I do not believe this has changed, and it's public and well-known knowledge.

Halperin notes: We have no control whatsoever over NGC grading, hiring, or company policy. Neither we nor NGC have ever made any attempt to hide our investment from anyone. We get the same treatment from NGC as any other significant submitter, and we submit our coins through the same anonymous process as everyone else.

marcmoish · November 3, 2016 6:55AM

@pruebas said:
.....
And HA does have a financial interest in NGC, but for US coins, the market demands PCGS, so they oblige.

this is absolutely correct - I am realizing why NGC is the better choice for darkside, and why as it seems our hosts are making it very difficult to get our business. It is what it is!

pruebas · November 25, 2016 7:30AM

I am looking through the HA NYINC auction preview.

It seems many (most?) of the newly-graded coins are in PCGS Secure holders.

Hooray!

Edited: OK, maybe only the floor sale. The non-floor sale has the usual preponderance of NGC holders.

blu62vette · December 5, 2016 9:45PM

David Hall posted a thread back in 2011 stating that Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy own 30% of NGC. I heard this years ago, but thought I would add to this thread the information from our host.

Unknown · December 6, 2016 12:08AM

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pruebas · December 6, 2016 12:11AM

@ProfHaroldHill said:

@marcmoish said:

@pruebas said:
.....
And HA does have a financial interest in NGC, but for US coins, the market demands PCGS, so they oblige.

this is absolutely correct - I am realizing why NGC is the better choice for darkside, and why as it seems our hosts are making it very difficult to get our business. It is what it is!

Well, I hope I won't be blackballed by "our hosts"... I had to quickly use my Collector's Club voucher before it expired, so I gathered 8 Ancient and modern World coins that I've had sitting around for too long, and sent them in to PCGS. (Literally one day B4 the voucher expired!)

It may not help matters that I have no idea what the dates are on several of them, and on a couple I wasn't even sure what to list when it came to the box where we indicate "country".

At least I 'Trueviewed' all of them. Maybe that'll be accepted as a right proper bribe of sorts.

I don't believe you need to pay for TrueView on cert submissions. The cert is good for a Secure submission, which gets a free TV. Just check the Secure box on your submission.

Unknown · December 6, 2016 12:21AM

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pruebas · December 6, 2016 1:30AM

I'm sure PCGS will figure it out and not charge you.

How to add TV.

Where are thou host holders in upcoming NYINC sale?

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