Alexander III Drachm resubmission tale
TequilaDave
Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
I've an interesting experience with an ancient and am wondering if this is normal in the world of ancients or a one-off and not something that's likely to occur again. (Sadly, I don't have any photos of the original slab and my new slab is still in the mail).
So about 7 yrs ago I went to an auction in San Diego and bought an Alexander the Great Drachm in an ICG slab graded VF for $125. I was the only person willing to bid on it. It was an impulse buy at the time due to the fact I knew nothing about ancients. I assumed, like most of us, that a coin graded by ICG (aka - I Can't Grade) was more than likely over-graded. Nevertheless, the coin itself looked really nice and had a very solid strike and appeared to have very little wear, especially for a VF. However, knowing little to nothing about grading ancients, I just assumed it was a very nice VF and through it in my misc box.
Fast forward to last month - I was submitting a batch of coins to NGC and saw this Drachm and on a whim decided I'd send the coin still in the ICG slab to NGC Ancients, if for no other reason to get it out of the ICG plastic. Frankly, in the back of my mind I worried the coin might not even be real, hence the reason it looked so nice for a VF. Yesterday my grade printed and much to my surprise, NGC Ancients have place my Drachm in an AU "star" slab! I about fell out of my chair when I saw this!!
My question is this - how unusual is it for an ancient graded by a third tier grading company to jump a solid 2+ grades? In the world of US coinage, something I'm much more familiar with, such a jump is virtually unheard of. And if this isn't a one-off, is it worthwhile to start searching ancients in third tier slabs for potentially large upgrades? Or is the grading of ancients so objective that such large changes in grade not as unusual as I would have expected coming from the world of US coinage?
So about 7 yrs ago I went to an auction in San Diego and bought an Alexander the Great Drachm in an ICG slab graded VF for $125. I was the only person willing to bid on it. It was an impulse buy at the time due to the fact I knew nothing about ancients. I assumed, like most of us, that a coin graded by ICG (aka - I Can't Grade) was more than likely over-graded. Nevertheless, the coin itself looked really nice and had a very solid strike and appeared to have very little wear, especially for a VF. However, knowing little to nothing about grading ancients, I just assumed it was a very nice VF and through it in my misc box.
Fast forward to last month - I was submitting a batch of coins to NGC and saw this Drachm and on a whim decided I'd send the coin still in the ICG slab to NGC Ancients, if for no other reason to get it out of the ICG plastic. Frankly, in the back of my mind I worried the coin might not even be real, hence the reason it looked so nice for a VF. Yesterday my grade printed and much to my surprise, NGC Ancients have place my Drachm in an AU "star" slab! I about fell out of my chair when I saw this!!
My question is this - how unusual is it for an ancient graded by a third tier grading company to jump a solid 2+ grades? In the world of US coinage, something I'm much more familiar with, such a jump is virtually unheard of. And if this isn't a one-off, is it worthwhile to start searching ancients in third tier slabs for potentially large upgrades? Or is the grading of ancients so objective that such large changes in grade not as unusual as I would have expected coming from the world of US coinage?
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Ancient collectors haven't embraced slabs and for the foreseeable future, won't.
But for folks like you who are not fully into ancients, slabbing give some comfort in your purchase, but you pay.
We would have to see a photo of your Drachm, but the Alex III drachms are very common and if it's as nice as you say, it's worth about a $100 or so.
But with your NGC grade, you might be smart to just sell it on ebay or auction and get whatever you can as I am sure many non ancient collectors may swarm over it.
Another negative ancient collectors have against slabs is majority of dealers who have slabbed ancients price them at ungodly amounts. A typical Gordian III silver thats about $35 Max for a average coin is priced at $125 usually, and same can be said for many other roman silvers that are common. And slabbed JUNK roman bronzes can be found at almost $100 and worth $10 or less!
So we tend to stay away from slabbed ancients as well due to the stupid high markup. Only if the price is fair for a non slabbed one do most ancient collectors bid or buy, then when they win it, out it goes from its tomb!
To be perfectly honest, whether it's in a ICG or even a NGC slab, majority of ancient collectors could care less about the slab. We tend to break them out of the plastic tomb and chuck the grades and such in the trash. We like to hold the coins among other things.
Ancient collectors haven't embraced slabs and for the foreseeable future, won't.
But for folks like you who are not fully into ancients, slabbing give some comfort in your purchase, but you pay.
We would have to see a photo of your Drachm, but the Alex III drachms are very common and if it's as nice as you say, it's worth about a $100 or so.
But with your NGC grade, you might be smart to just sell it on ebay or auction and get whatever you can as I am sure many non ancient collectors may swarm over it.
Another negative ancient collectors have against slabs is majority of dealers who have slabbed ancients price them at ungodly amounts. A typical Gordian III silver thats about $35 Max for a average coin is priced at $125 usually, and same can be said for many other roman silvers that are common. And slabbed JUNK roman bronzes can be found at almost $100 and worth $10 or less!
So we tend to stay away from slabbed ancients as well due to the stupid high markup. Only if the price is fair for a non slabbed one do most ancient collectors bid or buy, then when they win it, out it goes from its tomb!
I'm sure you're right and while I'm not trying to disagree with you, there seems to be good evidence that slabbed drachms do fetch pretty decent prices. Looking through "sold" listing on Ebay, VF's tend to sell between $200-$300, EF's tend to sell between $250-$450, AU's $350-$500+.
The same pattern seems to appear in Heritage auction results, too.
http://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/ancient-coins/ancients-macedonian-kingdom-alexander-iii-the-great-336-323-bc-ar-drachm-430-gm-/a/231550-62015.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
http://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/ancient-coins/ancients-macedonian-kingdom-alexander-iii-the-great-336-323-bc-ar-drachm-424-gm-/a/231552-64004.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
http://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/ancient-coins/ancients-macedonian-kingdom-alexander-iii-the-great-336-323-bc-ar-drachm-430-gm-/a/231611-63004.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
Hence it would appear there's a fairly decent market, albeit perhaps non collectors, at prices capable of making cherrypicking drachms worthwhile. Am I missing something?
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
Here is a nice one for $120:
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stor...vf/638827/Default.aspx
And this is about $200
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stor...ce/601311/Default.aspx
Im just going by the mainstream/average ancient collector. There is always gonna be higher end collectors who just may dabble in ancients and will pay whatever the label says.
I saw you made a thread on Cointalk, you'll get much more replies on there then here. And it could prove entertaining.
But if you intend to sell it, then go ahead and sell it and make some quick $ to put towards something else you want.
I stick to my guns - convergence on pricing with or without slabbing on higher end coins. I don't think people pay extra for plastic and I check auction trend pricing. What plastic does accomplish, is a more liquid product in case of sale as it presents an objective assessment of grade rather than a buy sell arbitrage. It also allows easier entry into ancients given the difference in grading and abundance of fakes.
bronzemat - why would you drive anyone to CoinTalk's ancient forum? That's a dictatorship not a forum.
I stick to my guns - convergence on pricing with or without slabbing on higher end coins. I don't think people pay extra for plastic and I check auction trend pricing. What plastic does accomplish, is a more liquid product in case of sale as it presents an objective assessment of grade rather than a buy sell arbitrage. It also allows easier entry into ancients given the difference in grading and abundance of fakes.
Not really, very friendly and a great forum. many VC dealers and regular experts are posting on it too.
Many of them just dislike slabs and don't like seeing people spending $200 on a slabbed ancient when a better/raw example is $60 or something.
They see it as pouring money down the *hitter.
You wanna talk dictatorship? Forvm Ancient Coins Forum is a dictatorship.
And I see your point but not everyone has deep pockets and honestly I have no problems parting with even my low and mid range ancients. If I can't sell them, there is many dealers who do fair trades.
And auction trends? If thats Heritage & stacks then that doesn't count really. Most buy their ancients on Ebay, Ancient Dealers, and auction sites like CNG or Agora, where most are not slabbed.
Heritage/Stacks tend to be the more deep pockets & investors.
If you are alluding that buying expensive coins does not equate to collecting then I disagree. I am a collector at heart and there are many who collect at a much higher level, spending more per coin than my entire collection. If they want to slab the coin so be it. When you buy a home you have an inspector look at it it doesn't hurt to have another opinion.
Probably not that unusual. In this particular scenario, you are comparing two companies with two different grading standards and two grading instances that happened probably about a decade apart. In fact, ICG has changed management since the time your coin was graded by them, so their standards are probably different now than they were then as well. Back in the day TPG companies pursued the folly of trying to apply a standardized 70 point grading scale meant for modern machine made coins that have been kept above ground to hand made, hammer struck ancient coins (ICG and ANACS moreso than NGC or PCGS at that time). NGC has kind of split the difference now and uses grades that are based on American grading vernacular, but they also take into consideration the differences in strike and environmental affects.
As you know, grading is certainly subjective, and I think especially so when it comes to ancient coins. Even traditional European grading standards for ancient coins are applied differently depending on the dealer. British dealers tend to "net grade" ancients by their problems. So even if a coin has a good bit of lustre with very little wear, but has a weak strike, they are likely to call that coin "VF". Others, like myself, tend to grade based on wear and then include descriptive terms to note any issues. So I would probably call that same coin "EF, Weakly struck."
As for the value in seeking out "upgrades" I guess it depends on how the coin is being marketed and to whom. Many who use the traditional European grading terms would find themselves at odds with NGC's standards. It's not unusual for me to see coins I have sold to other dealers/collectors with my grade of Good VF to end up in NGC AU holders. Same goes for my EF/Choice EF and NGC's Mint State. But in the end it's all just a meaningless label for the most part anyway. Some auction houses intentionally chronically undergrade because they know the coin is going to bring the right money regardless of what they call it.
I agree with Zohar that on the high price end, most ancient coins would sell for the same whether they are slabbed or not. In general, they are going to sell on eye appeal, regardless of what NGC's or the auction house's assigned grades are. So whether the coin is graded AU* 5/5, 5/5 or Good VF, if the market perceives it to be worth $10,000.00, then that's really all that matters. However, I also agree with bronzemat that the slab can be used to "bend" perception of value of the coin contained within it. Some people are really motivated to buy based on high grades and numbers on the slabs. They see lots of 5s and an MS grade and they become much more willing to part with money for that coin. Sometimes that same coin or a very similar one can be had for much less raw, sometimes not. Even if the buyer knew, they may not care because they really want the certified one (for whatever their reasons may be: Registry set, long term storage, lack of expertise in the coin, perceived future marketability, they believe there is an authenticity guarantee { though there is not}, just because they like it, etc.).
Since in the end, as a dealer, price and margin are what matters most, this effect is more noticeable on coins typically priced under $500.00. Since it costs about $50-$60 per coin to have ancients graded by NGC's full workup tier (i.e. grade/weight/strike/surface) and it typically takes about 2 months turnaround time, there is a need to add on a larger percentage markup. This results in prices much like bronzemat mentioned, when coins are available for $35-$50 raw, but are typically priced at $125.00 certified. The dealer isn't really making any more money when you consider the additional labor and grading fees, but it's the only way the coin can be sold for a profit. If there weren't buyers for these coins at those levels, this would stop immediately, but it hasn't, so one must assume there are buyers willing to pay those levels for whatever their reasons may be.
I carry both raw and certified ancient coins in inventory. In general, I find that a lot of certified coins under $500.00 generally sell for about $50.00-$75.00 more than what I would ask for comparable coins raw. From that perspective, there is generally no reason for me to send in coins to be certified. However, I can think of at least one instance where the plastic really made a difference. About 2 years ago, I bought a collection of ancient coins that contained a common Vespasian dupondius that was so awful, I could barely stomach figuring the coin for $5.00 in the deal. It happened to be certified VG with 3/5 strike and 1/5 surface. I put the coin on eBay, figuring that even if it went for twenty bucks, that was better than taking the effort to break it out and put it in a junk lot bag. If the coin had been raw, it would have gone in a junk bag and I would have been THRILLED to get $7.00-$10.00 for it as part of a lot. The coin ended up selling for $112.00. I still to this day do not understand why other than it had to be the plastic.
So I guess the moral of this long winded rambling story is, if you can consistently find the buyers to pay significant enough premiums, then by all means seek out those upgrades, but you can't necessarily count on the overall market bearing a whole lot more money for a coin just because the new holder says something different than the old one, but sometimes you might get lucky.
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Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
They are friendly to people that collect the way they do. There is one unpleasant guy who runs that forum who believes he has the authority to direct others how to collect. I tried posting there multiple times and get beat up by him and his followers. All keyboard General's who need to feel good about themselves. To me that is not a friendly place but a good old boys club with an unwelcoming vibe.
Thats Doug Smith, he's a old time collector and I have mentioned one of the more respected collectors in the ancient coin world.
He had be a bit rough, but I think he dislikes seeing people pay alot for slabbed ancients when better ones can be for much less or people think the coin is guaranteed real, when it's not.
One of our favorite jokes is fabricating provenance, ie., Colosseum Hoard, Seven Hills Hoard. These hoards do not exist in any academic references but give $ to NGC, it all of a sudden appears and seems legit to a non ancient collector so they pay up.
So I see your point but I see the reason how he is too.
Personally, don't care. I enjoy seeing your ancient coins & your Thalars. Some wonderful stuff.
I do appreciate your thoughts bronzemat. However, there is a difference between critiquing an issue once vs. pouncing on any post with a slab, essentially killing the thread. Very similar to the liteside posts. The chorus follows him like sheep. Unpleasant place unless you subscribe to the same mindset.