Lipstick on a pig (or, the art of buying)
EVillageProwler
Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
I want to share with the viewership my sole newp from the just concluded Whitman Baltimore show, and for the newbies among us a little story about the art of buying when you're not sure what you are doing.
The coin in question is a 1674 Scudo from the Italian city of Genoa. Dav-3901, and graded MS63 by a reputable TPG. According to Krause, the coin lists at $700 in EF, but is unpriced in UNC. So, how much is it worth? I ask to look at the coin (go ahead now and take a look at the coin -- the images are from my iPhone, so please be charitable!), and I see that the reverse is quite nice. It is quite lustrous and not with too many (as made) defects. I say it is no question choice. The obverse, however, is tougher to love. Despite my image, the obverse has the same color as the reverse -- very lightly toned with a pale gray dusting.
But, the obverse has more defects, and is less flashy. I look carefully at the coin, and see that it does seem to be UNC to me; the obverse does actually have quite a bit of sheen throughout the badly produced planchet. Nevertheless, it certainly does not look "choice" to me as the assessed grade suggests.
I sit down with the dealer, with whom I've never previously done business (or even knew of his existence), and we discuss this coin. I ask him directly if he thinks this is a choice coin. He answers 'no'. So far, so good. He also says that a "choice" specimen will probably cost $5000 or more. (That seems about right to me.) He had it priced closer to the un-choice level. I still wavered on the transaction, because it's hard to love a pig, no matter how much lipstick you put on it. I asked him if he has room, and he said that he doesn't want to accept lower than $Xyyy, and that he paid $Xxxx for it. So, I decide to offer him $Xxxx * 1.15, which turned out to be a small amount less than his initial number. I apologized for unintentionally chiseling, and he responded graciously because he knew that I just made a mistake with my mental calculation.
After he accepted my offer of $Xxxx * 1.15, I asked him if he wants dealer references since I planned to write a personal check. A nearby dealer whom we both know vouched for me. As I was writing the check, he stopped me and asked me if I want to take the coin to another dealer for a second dealer. I accepted, showed the coin to a 3rd dealer whom I trust (the seller did not accompany me). This 3rd dealer whom I trust looked at the coin and remarked that the coin is in very high grade, and in fact he'd never seen this in such high grade before. That bodes well. My dealer friend asked me if I had looked up the pricing in Coin Archives yet; I hadn't, but it didn't matter since I had already negotiated the price in good faith. (I did search HA.com archives, and came up without relevant data other than the coin is quite scarce.)
I thanked my dealer friend and went back to conclude the transaction.
A few points for those of us who are not veterans in the art of buying (I'm not claiming to be good at it, btw!)...
First, I asked the dealer if he had room on the price, but not what is his "best price". "Best price" is industry code for bottom-line-take-it-or-leave-it price, with no further haggling after you hear the price. Violating this is a liable to get you a bad reputation amongst the dealers, and will make it very hard for you to get decent coins at decent prices from that dealer and his clique.
Second, shoot for a price that both of you can live with. The dealer has his expenses, and don't think you need to go for the hard approach. If you really want the coin, just be fair. If you think the dealer is quoting a bad price, then walk away. If he honestly trying to work with you, then you should do the same. Your reputation as a buyer also matters.
Third, be respectful. If you need to ask him tough questions, don't be a punk about it. That should set the tone for everything that follows.
Fourth, invest in relationships with dealers who are knowledgeable, honest, fair and respectful.
After all this, I hope I got the coin for a fair price.
The coin in question is a 1674 Scudo from the Italian city of Genoa. Dav-3901, and graded MS63 by a reputable TPG. According to Krause, the coin lists at $700 in EF, but is unpriced in UNC. So, how much is it worth? I ask to look at the coin (go ahead now and take a look at the coin -- the images are from my iPhone, so please be charitable!), and I see that the reverse is quite nice. It is quite lustrous and not with too many (as made) defects. I say it is no question choice. The obverse, however, is tougher to love. Despite my image, the obverse has the same color as the reverse -- very lightly toned with a pale gray dusting.
But, the obverse has more defects, and is less flashy. I look carefully at the coin, and see that it does seem to be UNC to me; the obverse does actually have quite a bit of sheen throughout the badly produced planchet. Nevertheless, it certainly does not look "choice" to me as the assessed grade suggests.
I sit down with the dealer, with whom I've never previously done business (or even knew of his existence), and we discuss this coin. I ask him directly if he thinks this is a choice coin. He answers 'no'. So far, so good. He also says that a "choice" specimen will probably cost $5000 or more. (That seems about right to me.) He had it priced closer to the un-choice level. I still wavered on the transaction, because it's hard to love a pig, no matter how much lipstick you put on it. I asked him if he has room, and he said that he doesn't want to accept lower than $Xyyy, and that he paid $Xxxx for it. So, I decide to offer him $Xxxx * 1.15, which turned out to be a small amount less than his initial number. I apologized for unintentionally chiseling, and he responded graciously because he knew that I just made a mistake with my mental calculation.
After he accepted my offer of $Xxxx * 1.15, I asked him if he wants dealer references since I planned to write a personal check. A nearby dealer whom we both know vouched for me. As I was writing the check, he stopped me and asked me if I want to take the coin to another dealer for a second dealer. I accepted, showed the coin to a 3rd dealer whom I trust (the seller did not accompany me). This 3rd dealer whom I trust looked at the coin and remarked that the coin is in very high grade, and in fact he'd never seen this in such high grade before. That bodes well. My dealer friend asked me if I had looked up the pricing in Coin Archives yet; I hadn't, but it didn't matter since I had already negotiated the price in good faith. (I did search HA.com archives, and came up without relevant data other than the coin is quite scarce.)
I thanked my dealer friend and went back to conclude the transaction.
A few points for those of us who are not veterans in the art of buying (I'm not claiming to be good at it, btw!)...
First, I asked the dealer if he had room on the price, but not what is his "best price". "Best price" is industry code for bottom-line-take-it-or-leave-it price, with no further haggling after you hear the price. Violating this is a liable to get you a bad reputation amongst the dealers, and will make it very hard for you to get decent coins at decent prices from that dealer and his clique.
Second, shoot for a price that both of you can live with. The dealer has his expenses, and don't think you need to go for the hard approach. If you really want the coin, just be fair. If you think the dealer is quoting a bad price, then walk away. If he honestly trying to work with you, then you should do the same. Your reputation as a buyer also matters.
Third, be respectful. If you need to ask him tough questions, don't be a punk about it. That should set the tone for everything that follows.
Fourth, invest in relationships with dealers who are knowledgeable, honest, fair and respectful.
After all this, I hope I got the coin for a fair price.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
0
Comments
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>EVP - good write-up. Who was the dealer? I would feel comfortable giving him my business in the future based on your accounts of the transaction. >>
PM sent.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I would not hesitate one second to give that dealer my business.
One seldom finds such straight forward honesty and support.
BUT, I mainly am only in to Canadian coins 1858 to 1967.
By the way, if you do find my post, you can see the condition in which these coins frequently are sold.
DPOTD
<< <i>I had my own story about Genoese Scudos, back around September of last year. Since the Forum does not support Search with the Safari browser, I cannot locate it.
By the way, if you do find my post, you can see the condition in which these coins frequently are sold. >>
The search feature befuddles me. What is the typical condition? I guess in the ChVF range. Yes?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Congrat's - I love the reverse and the obverse ain't all that bad either when you factor in timeframe and equip to mint - overall even if it saw a few minutes of circulation thats well graded. I'd be thrilled if it graded 62 too
With apologies to the Forum and to this thread, let me repost my images here:
My best one I purchased first hand at the NYINC, back in 2012:
Then, I made the mistake of purchasing one from a major vendor with a significant cachet, via internet auction:
This final one, I purchased mail order, where the image online fairly matched the coin:
DPOTD
I once said to an Italian dealer that these pieces certainly weren't made by the Germans!
And, from the looks of your images, these coins had the misfortune of being poorly made as well as being rigorously used in commerce.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
My World Coin Type Set
J
siliconvalleycoins.com
You never know what you may find in the cases of unknown dealers!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Had you opened with "do you accept personal checks" a weary dealer may have brushed you aside with a simple "No."
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>I was most interested in the detail that you waited until after a price had been agreed upon, before you mentioned paying by check. I think that was wise because at that point you had already built rapport.
Had you opened with "do you accept personal checks" a weary dealer may have brushed you aside with a simple "No." >>
I highly doubt that. Most dealers would simply ask for dealer references.
A seller who is too quick to dismiss a selling opportunity isn't a seller for long.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
http://blog.960coins.com - All about the 960 Reis coins.
Check my BST!