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Painful Show Observation
MiniDuff
Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭
I have posted on this topic before, but I had a first hand experience this weekend that really stood out. It has been my take for some time that shows are for the most part a waste of time. I have brought significant money in hopes of buying and generally come home with what I left with minus admission. I am not there to fill sets or hunt dollar boxes, where business remains lively. It seems to me that both buyers and dealers are wed to ebay on better cards and afraid to make a deal. Buyers think they can do better on ebay and sellers think they can get more, so I keep seeing the same cards from the same dealers, unsold for months.
Fast forward to yesterday. I went to the Long Island National at Hofstra. There were asbolutely some nice cards there. I very seriously considered buying a clemente rookie, but just couldnt pull the trigger at the ask, which was well above market. The centering was so nice I almost went back today... Anyway, I was four feet away from a conversation I couldnt help overhearing. A buyer was interested in three or four cards for several hundred dollars. The seller would not come down more than a few dollars and started a whole discussion that he HAD to get more for his cards at a show than he could get on ebay, or he wouldn't sell them.
At another table, a buyer was looking at a deal for four psa 6 and 7 Mantles. The dealer was asking top dollar and in the end would only come down 10%. The buyer walked away. Same dealer had a nice, well, but not perfectly, centered Henderson rookie graded sgc 96. He wouldn't come down from $375.
Maybe this experience is concentrated in the NY Metro area. Others seem to have better experiences.
I also want to again take a shot at Beckett. There can not be a more useless, time wasting vendor in the hobby and it keeps getting worse. The set up for on site grading as well as taking actual subs. Every time, there is one guy working the booth. That's it. It is an incredibly slow process (not actually getting a card graded, but handing in a submission) that often takes 5-10 minutes per person, with 10 or more people gathered around the booth on all sides waiting and no formal line. I tried to do a review on a couple cards in Westchester back in August and finally walked away. Same thing yesterday. For Christ's sake folks, get a number dispenser from a deli and an LED and make everyone's life better, including the poor guy working the booth. </end rant>
Fast forward to yesterday. I went to the Long Island National at Hofstra. There were asbolutely some nice cards there. I very seriously considered buying a clemente rookie, but just couldnt pull the trigger at the ask, which was well above market. The centering was so nice I almost went back today... Anyway, I was four feet away from a conversation I couldnt help overhearing. A buyer was interested in three or four cards for several hundred dollars. The seller would not come down more than a few dollars and started a whole discussion that he HAD to get more for his cards at a show than he could get on ebay, or he wouldn't sell them.
At another table, a buyer was looking at a deal for four psa 6 and 7 Mantles. The dealer was asking top dollar and in the end would only come down 10%. The buyer walked away. Same dealer had a nice, well, but not perfectly, centered Henderson rookie graded sgc 96. He wouldn't come down from $375.
Maybe this experience is concentrated in the NY Metro area. Others seem to have better experiences.
I also want to again take a shot at Beckett. There can not be a more useless, time wasting vendor in the hobby and it keeps getting worse. The set up for on site grading as well as taking actual subs. Every time, there is one guy working the booth. That's it. It is an incredibly slow process (not actually getting a card graded, but handing in a submission) that often takes 5-10 minutes per person, with 10 or more people gathered around the booth on all sides waiting and no formal line. I tried to do a review on a couple cards in Westchester back in August and finally walked away. Same thing yesterday. For Christ's sake folks, get a number dispenser from a deli and an LED and make everyone's life better, including the poor guy working the booth. </end rant>
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There was a guy (maybe it was the one with the clemente you mentioned) Had an Aaron RC SGC and PSA 6 and a PSA 7. Told me both 6 were 1,200 and the 7 was 2,400 and that he was firm on those prices and then i got the speech about how the Aaron..Clemente..Koufax rookies keep going up and up. Really? i bought an Aaron SGC 6 in White Plains for 1,000 few weeks ago.
There were a bunch of other dealers asking over market. Did you see the guy with the vintage graded cards when you walk in that had sticker prices on them? They were so overpriced!!!
You would have hoped at the one big show at Hofstra it would have been better. I had cash ready to spend but didnt part with much money.
I picked up a really nice 1963 Brock PSA 8...and a 72 Aaron PSA 7.5 for $160 total. Will post pics later. (the Brock is sweet!!)
I agree that more and more dealers aren’t coming down off their graded card prices compared to that of raw cards, but then again, why should they. They can do whatever they want with their cards. It can become quite frustrating however dealing with those type of dealers - especially when you have your eye on a particular card. One thing I may point out is when I offer a fair price for the card, I try to also bring up that I would be saving them if they were to list on eBay after eBay and PayPal fee's than if it were to be sold on line so they would both save money. Win Win resolution.
Still, many dealers ARE willing to sell at discounts for repeat customers so if your someone who has bought from them before, they’re most likely to give you a little price reduction just for the sheer fact that they know you will probably come back. There have also been times that by me just having a good card/sports conversation with the dealer, before I leave there table, I sometimes might make an offer and they sometime oblige just because they like you.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i> One thing I may point out is when I offer a fair price for the card, I try to also bring up that I would be saving them if they were to list on eBay after eBay and PayPal fee's than if it were to be sold on line so they would both save money. Win Win resolution. >>
I just wanted to add something to bringing up Ebay/paypal fees for a discount. Say its a card that sells for $500 on Ebay, and you estimate ebay/paypal fees at 10% or $50. I am all for offers of $470-$480 because the seller would only net $450 after fees. But on other boards when I try to sell, people would say I should take $450 because they are saving me ebay/paypal fees....when in fact, instead of ebay taking my $50, the buyer is just saving the $50 and I am in the same boat as I was before. If ebay fees are $50, and you take $25 off, then its a win/win for both parties. As a seller, if someone came up to the table and asked me if I would take $450, I probably would. But if they tried to justify it by saying I'd save ebay fees, I'd probably come back at $475 and explain how I am not saving ebay fees if I am giving you a 100% discount of the fees.
I'm not saying you ask for the full ebay fees off. I am just stating my experiences with giving a discount of ebay/paypal fees and that it's not saving the seller money if you ask for a 100% discount of ebay fees.
This is what I do - if the dealer is asking $300, after paypal and ebay fees (total of 12%) - the reduction would come out to $264. Well I don't expect the dealer to give it to me for that price because then there would be nothing in it for him and he might as well sell it online. However, if I offered him $280, then he would be more likely to accept (and they usually do) because he would be saving me $20 from the original $300 price and I would be saving him $16 (plus he gets paid in cash) so as I mentioned - win win for both parties.
I'm going to share a self serving story, where I learned a life and business lesson:
In early 1987 one of the hottest cards in NY was Dave Magadan. They sold as fast as you could rip them for a buck. A kid came up to my table and asked if I would give him a quarter for one he had just pulled (a very small example of a hot topic on a different thread).
I said no, it was worth more and I gave him 50 cents instead. It so happened that his father was listening from the next table over. He came over and introduced himself and wound up being one of my best customers for the next ten years.
It is not about making the last buck on every deal and too many dealers seem to have forgotten that. It sounds counter intuitive, but it may be that relationship building in this hobby has moved online and it is the face to face transaction that has become impersonal.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Perfectly said last statement.
Mickey71
As for selling, I don't think I would ever set up again at a show. I attend Frank and Sons a couple times a year and sit behind a buddies table and am just dismayed at the amount of buyers in there that feel you should sell them the cards cheaper because as they put it, "I can't make any money at that price". There are hardly any collectors anymore(especially in SoCal), most of the people are looking to buy the cards and flip them for a profit on ebay.
These are not all the people buying but as a dealer selling at a show you have to probably assume that they have dealt with numerous people like this and when you bring up the whole ebay thing they are a little annoyed to start. Splitting the difference of ebay fees is fair to both.
Dealer had three Dan Marino inserts, each listed at $50 each. He said he was 'willing to wheel and deal'. I offered him $125 for all of them, and he looked at me like I offered $1.25 for all of them. He said there was no way he could sell them to me for that, and he took them from my hand.
I went to another table, and while I was looking at those cards, I kept an eye on the seller that had the Marinos. He had lots of people look at his stuff, but I saw zero money change hands.
Oh well, I ended up finding a seller who had a ton of stuff that I could spend that $125 on.
To each their own.
Sportlots inventory:
splot
My eBay store:
ebay
I remember one guy had 5 or 6 1975 Topps cellos with stars on top. I was interested in the one with Pete Rose but decided to ask how much he wanted for the Frank Robinson pack. $200. Way steep when compared to eBay hammer prices. You can get one PSA certified for a lot less than that.
Another guy had some sweet 1970 cards. I asked a price for one and he grabbed the SMR and gave me a price. I asked if the quote was book price and he told me it was higher. I still enjoyed the show but like a few others on this thread, I went home with a good bit of money I planned on spending.
.......and BTW, that '63 Brock is awesome!
One guy that stands out from the last show I did. Walked up with a beckett and said Im looking for cards I can make money off of. How much for the mantle?? Oh thats to much I cant make money off of that. How much for this other one? Hmmmm maybe. Should I have just said heres a 20.00? Then the next customer was a set collector and he enjoyed being able to view the cards in hand and I cut him a deal off my asking price. We were both happy. it was for 70.00 worth of cards and I probably only made 10.00 of the deal. Yes there are dealers that want to make 100.00s off vg cards, but you can see them in hand and make a judgment thats what they are doing. The guy looking to make a quick buck seems to out number the true collectors by 5to1 I feel. Its just funny how so many people just want you to give away your stuff so they can then sell them the same day for more money. Got to give the guy credit for just saying what he was trying to do. But he has no fees standing on the other side of the table and expects lower than normal prices. It just gets old both ways that you look at it. As a seller and a buyer. You have to put time into it if you are a buyer or a seller. Its not easy and the first card you see isnt going to be the one for you. You have to work to buy a card, assesing condition,rarity, and how much you can be happy paying for the item. For a seller you have many fees, time, and having product that you can sell for a profit. You have to do both areas if you are a seller. First you have to buy. Ebay has made everyone a seller and dealers know that. But they are offering you a different view other than your computer. So that is an expense more than selling on ebay to them.
I find that cards I buy at shows I tend to value more and pleased with. Cards that I buy at auctions houses I am normaly disapointed as I find flaws on them after I buy them.
Yes the collector has to pay 5.00 to get in and sometimes they dont find free parking. But the dealers normaly did the same thing pluss table fees. Im just saying I can see why dealers are not that friendly 100% of the time when they are doing these shows.
The market will decide and if it keeps getting worse for both ends of this problem, Then I see suplies drying up and less shows all around.
Which isnt good for our hobby in my eyes as shows where what excited me most as a young child collecting cards with my friends.
I just think the internet and eBay changed the collecting world in a profound way. When I was collecting in the '80's, there was the local card shop and there were shows. Now, if I want a 1968 Hoyt Wilhelm, I just hit search on eBay and choose the best deal out of several dozen.
<< <i>Why is it (or seems to be) that the collectible market (cards, comics, coins, etc) seems also the most negotiable business? I would love to go to the supermarket and be like "I'll give you $2.00 for the milk - what do you say?" >>
In a sense, that is already the case, as a store that prices a gallon of milk higher than the store across the street will soon realize that they will be selling fewer gallons of milk unless there is some other sale to draw customers in. Conversely, if a seller is offering a $200 card for $100, only a stupid buyer will try and haggle over that price as the next savvy buyer will just purchase it in the mean time.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In my experience, haggling with a dealer is easier when buying multiples, buying the non high demand stars (Jordan, Mantle, Aaron, etc.), and being a repeat customer. After all, how would you handle it if you were him? Where are there discounts anywhere on Mantle, Jordan, Aaron, etc? Not saying there shouldn't be, but I'm not surprised there isn't much cut off the price when I ask.
One thing I will say, I can do without the dealer's attitudes when asking for a discount. I usually let him come up with a amount. If I don't like it, I politely pass. Dealers seem to forget that the customers at yearly regional shows would be their regular customers and purchase more every year if treated with class and given some good deals.
I have lots of repeat luck buying raw off dealers at the GBSCC shows in Boston every year. Best day for haggling is Sunday. Hope this trend continues this November.
Good luck.