Just the tip of the iceberg for the Libor rate manipulation issue

derryb · July 3, 2012 6:44AM

"Citites and local governments got scalped"

Just more counterparty risk surfacing that brightens physical PMs and their lack of such risk. Keep on stackin'.

KUCH · July 3, 2012 7:37AM

I hope everyone of you who lie, steal, and cheat in our financial industry face prison time and financial ruin. I'm not worried, I'll keep stacking and follow the good WORD. Nice move up today and now I'm a buyer, "never catch a falling knife".

It's funny, you just know who and what is straight up. I will not be celebrating the 4th tomorrow, America is dead, the Republic failed. Abject stupidity and power has caused this great monetary soverign debt crisis. It's not over folks, and don't tell me I'm paranoid. But you can tell me how the world will be a better place for our kids financially and morally. Anyone got an answer? And in this madness, I'm not even mad. I'm just fed up with the FED.

How can I keep stacking when I work 12 months in the private sector and for 6 of those months, my earnings go to the government in taxes? Anyone got an answer?

We live in a nation of evil, America as we know it is gone. We live in a nation of thieves, America is sick. We live in a nation that kills children, America is a murderer.

Got Gold?

OnlyGoldIsMoney · July 3, 2012 7:47AM

derryb, what is the short explanation of what LIBOR is and the significance of the manipulation?

The ZH article assumes the reader has a basic knowledge of the topic which I lack.

derryb · July 3, 2012 7:55AM

Libor manipulation scandal

The London Interbank Offered Rate is the average interest rate estimated by leading banks in London that they would be charged if borrowing from other banks. It is a benchmark, along with the Euribor, for interest rates all around the world.

jmski52 · July 3, 2012 8:32AM

what is the short explanation of what LIBOR is and the significance of the manipulation?

London Interbank Overnight Rate

The Libor Rate is basically a direct measure of how much the big banks can trust each other. The rate spiked to something over 4% (per night) during the 2008 fiasco, as I recall. When Henry Paulson went before Congress to get his $800 Billion bailout, he wasn't worried about our financial system. He was worried about "his" and "their" financial systems.

Is LIBOR up these days?

RedTiger · July 3, 2012 11:58AM

<< I hope everyone of you who lie, steal, and cheat in our financial industry face prison time and financial ruin. I'm not worried, I'll keep stacking and follow the good WORD. Nice move up today and now I'm a buyer, "never catch a falling knife".

It's funny, you just know who and what is straight up. I will not be celebrating the 4th tomorrow, America is dead, the Republic failed. Abject stupidity and power has caused this great monetary soverign debt crisis. It's not over folks, and don't tell me I'm paranoid. But you can tell me how the world will be a better place for our kids financially and morally. Anyone got an answer? And in this madness, I'm not even mad. I'm just fed up with the FED.

How can I keep stacking when I work 12 months in the private sector and for 6 of those months, my earnings go to the government in taxes? Anyone got an answer?

We live in a nation of evil, America as we know it is gone. We live in a nation of thieves, America is sick. We live in a nation that kills children, America is a murderer.

Got Gold? >>

I'll repeat my advice to you: Turn off the computer. Turn off the TV. Stop talking to the doom and gloom crowd that want to claim your young soul.

The U.S. is still the greatest country on Earth, people from all over the world still want to come here. Where else would you live? Egypt which is going hard line Islamists? China which is still Communist? France which just elected a hard left Socialist government on a platform of 75% marginal income tax rates, with another 20% in VAT? Can anyone recall the Beatles song The Taxman, 19 for the taxman, 1 for the worker?

"America is dead? Nation of evil?" Just because there are some crooks? Let me state the obvious for the young crowd, there have ALWAYS been crooks. Lets peek back at 19th century politicians such as the infamous Tammany Hall gang:
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Tweed

>>
For example, the construction cost of the New York County Courthouse, begun in 1861, grew to nearly $13 million – about $178 million in today's dollars, and nearly twice the cost of the Alaska Purchase in 1867. A carpenter was paid $360,751 (roughly $4.9 million today) for one month's labor in a building with very little woodwork ... a plasterer got $133,187 ($1.82 million) for two days' work.
>>

The Tweed gang makes the modern crowd almost look like kids running a lemonade stand in comparison. They ran all of New York City, and that included Wall Street. They helped Wall Street allies take over, manipulate and eventually loot many valuable companies, such as the Erie Railroad. Hard times and war, brought scoundrels to many open perches in the land. The country survived that time of the Civil War, the horrible corruption, and will likely survive the stuff that continually gets posted on this doom and gloom forum as well.

On July 4th, read the Declaration of Independence, or at least the good parts, out loud to you kids, if they are old enough to understand. The Preamble to the Constitution too. Fly the flag, fly it proud, despite the crooks, despite the problem, the U.S. is still the greatest nation on Earth. Just say no to the ghouls that want to claim your soul.

If you really really think this country is over, then take your kids somewhere else and have them start a new life. I warn you, that you may be disappointed at the level of corruption in your new nation of choice though. Your kids can do great things, heck as a young person with that high of an income tax rate, you can do great things, but not with the soul stealing attitude that has taken hold of you. Money, wealth, aren't worth much, not even a big stack of metal, if a person doesn't enjoy life, and can't appreciate the great blessings they have, even today. Many Americans that spend some time overseas, especially the unfiltered non-tourist version, often want to kiss the ground when they get back. Be thankful for this great country, faults and problems and all.

from
http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/
>>
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government ...
>>

from
http://www.ushistory.org/documents/constitution.htm
>>
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
>>

piecesofme · July 3, 2012 3:10PM

but but...but but but, cohodk says there is no manipulation whatsoever in any market, let alone libor

renman95 · July 3, 2012 3:36PM

KUCH, I can understand your frustration but RT gives good advice. Reacquaint with what's good about America. I hear smoe that want to leave. Where would one go? I'll stay and defend what is good and purge what is not. It all starts with the individual.

1jester · July 3, 2012 4:26PM

Kuch isn't the only one who is disappointed with what we see going on in America. Many Americans have left for better shores; that cannot be denied. I suggest directing the frustration into workable solutions, such as putting the criminals behind bars (or in the electric chair, where applicable), from the top on down. Only when the rule of law is adhered to will we Americans be able to claim our country is the best in the world.

On topic, Barclay's has gone on record as saying their masters at the Bank of England (no doubt, "doing 'God's' work", were behind the whole scandal. The whole body is putrified, from the head down.

derryb · July 3, 2012 4:27PM

<< Just more counterparty risk surfacing that brightens physical PMs and their lack of such risk. Keep on stackin'. >>

Looks like Sinclair agrees

jmski52 · July 4, 2012 7:24AM

*** Correction***

London Interbank Offered Rate

I expect that we will be hearing more about this unless the cartel manages to squash the inquiries, which seems more and more unlikely.

Video from Sinclair's site with Elliot Spitzer interviewing Matt Tabbi and a lawyer with inside experience. Hope the link works:

Elliot Spitzer as interviewer...Viewpoint with Elliot Spitzer

cohodk · July 4, 2012 8:28AM

<< but but...but but but, cohodk says there is no manipulation whatsoever in any market, let alone libor

>>

I think he says manipulation doesnt matter. Besides, a lower LIBOR rate helps everyone who has a credit card.

roadrunner · July 4, 2012 9:38AM

I saw two numbers ($35 TRILL and $350 TRILL) that were estimates on how financial transactions were affected over the period of manipulation.
The $35 TRILL was how much money was picked from the pockets of people. The $350 TRILL was the total value of financial transactions that were affected.
It's easier to come up with a list of what isn't heavily manipulated in today's HFT world.

I don't think the Tweed boyz had anything on the current generation of banksters who took things to another level of magnitude. Besides, the Tweedsters never killed the world's banking and financial systems.

cohodk · July 4, 2012 1:45PM

So where would this $35 Trillion that was fleeced from the people be? In the banks? If so, then I think they be pretty darn solvent and since the stock market has been on its arse in fear of banking problems, the bears on Wall Street could get a trip to the taxidermist.

piecesofme · July 4, 2012 9:42PM

How can I keep stacking when I work 12 months in the private sector and for 6 of those months, my earnings go to the government in taxes? Anyone got an answer?

Really? 50% of your annual earnings go to taxes, am I reading that correctly?
If so, I'm sorry but, respectfully, you're doing ok if you're in that tax bracket my friend. Be upset with everything else, fine. But earning that living is what most folks aspire to do.

DrBuster · July 4, 2012 9:49PM

<< How can I keep stacking when I work 12 months in the private sector and for 6 of those months, my earnings go to the government in taxes? Anyone got an answer?

Really? 50% of your annual earnings go to taxes, am I reading that correctly?
If so, I'm sorry but, respectfully, you're doing ok if you're in that tax bracket my friend. Be upset with everything else, fine. But earning that living is what most folks aspire to do. >>

Between state/fed/SS/sales/property/auto/etc taxes I'd say a lot of folks that work pay 50%+. You'd be surprised at how little you have to make to hit that number.

Cakes · July 4, 2012 11:48PM

<< I hope everyone of you who lie, steal, and cheat in our financial industry face prison time and financial ruin. I'm not worried, I'll keep stacking and follow the good WORD. Nice move up today and now I'm a buyer, "never catch a falling knife".

It's funny, you just know who and what is straight up. I will not be celebrating the 4th tomorrow, America is dead, the Republic failed. Abject stupidity and power has caused this great monetary soverign debt crisis. It's not over folks, and don't tell me I'm paranoid. But you can tell me how the world will be a better place for our kids financially and morally. Anyone got an answer? And in this madness, I'm not even mad. I'm just fed up with the FED.

How can I keep stacking when I work 12 months in the private sector and for 6 of those months, my earnings go to the government in taxes? Anyone got an answer?

We live in a nation of evil, America as we know it is gone. We live in a nation of thieves, America is sick. We live in a nation that kills children, America is a murderer.

Got Gold? >>

Disgusting

mhammerman · July 5, 2012 12:11AM

"Really? 50% of your annual earnings go to taxes, am I reading that correctly? If so, I'm sorry but, respectfully, you're doing ok if you're in that tax bracket my friend. Be upset with everything else, fine. But earning that living is what most folks aspire to do."

"Between state/fed/SS/sales/property/auto/etc taxes I'd say a lot of folks that work pay 50%+. You'd be surprised at how little you have to make to hit that number."

Seems that that the 50% rate is a useful benchmark that captures most of the middle class. The middle class is getting hosed big time and they are starting to get pized. Start here:

Property tax 6k/yr + (for a 100K/yr fam. that's 6%)
Income tax (we'll go easy and call it 28%)
Social Security/Medicare tax on earnings...call it 6%
There's 40% off the top...Haircut, mister?

Gasoline tax...call it 12%
State income tax (varies so we'll leave this blank)
Capital gains tax (if you're so lucky)
Royalty tax (if you're so lucky)
Sales tax 8% on the average

The raw numbers add up to 60% (W/O capturing capital gains, state income taxes and royalties), just for your working stiff cube farmer with a family. One could argue that gas tax isn't a tax on your earnings but it's even more damaging when you realize that it's a tax on earnings that you have already been taxed on, same thing with sales tax, it's a tax on money you've already been taxed on. Actually, there are two levels of taxation; federal then state/local. Really, you don't think you are paying 50% of your earnings back in taxes? In the broader brush stroke...if 50% are paying taxes then then where does the money come from for the 50% that don't?

Still don't think you are paying 50% of your income in taxes...well, just add some fees and surely you can get to that number.

state vehicle inspection fees
tolls
fishing/rec license fees
drivers license fees
vehicle registration fees
permit fees for repairs/work
disposal fees for computers/batteries/stuff
don't forget that little tax (or it may be a fee) on your cell phone: Universal Service Charge
This list goes on for a while...

Stacking metal is an excellent option.

Got GOLD?

jmski52 · July 5, 2012 12:25AM

50% of your annual earnings go to taxes, am I reading that correctly? If so, I'm sorry but, respectfully, you're doing ok if you're in that tax bracket my friend. Be upset with everything else, fine. But earning that living is what most folks aspire to do.

Don't worry. If you aren't in that category now, you will be in January - and more.

America is dead, the Republic failed.

From a technical standpoint, I'd have to agree. Based on the Supreme Court decision, since the government can now pick and choose who and how they want to tax for any reason and it is completely "constitutional". That wouldn't have remotely had a chance of being accepted in the original Republic.

Unjust taxes were one of the primary motivations for the Revolutionary War. I'm wondering how our current tax structure will compare to the 13 colonies once everything related to the new law is in place.

If I felt some commonality with the 49% of people who don't pay federal taxes, I might feel differently. Indeed, a fair percentage are legit. However, a very high percentage are not legit, in my eyes.

Note that taxes can only be levied on people who either have assets or people who work for an income. Congratulations if you belong to either group, because you are now one of those "rich people", regardless of how much you own or make. That target on your back was made in Venezuela. The "no added taxes on the middle class" was an outrageous lie then, and they all knew it up front.

You are now screwed, unless you are one of Pelosi's rich friends or union buddies, who happened to belong to the group of 5,000 who got WAIVERS from this crappy law.

I'm already missing my country.

derryb · July 5, 2012 12:37AM

don't forget the extremely high taxes on your electronic communications such as telephone, internet, cell phone and cable/SAT TV. Look for new and higher local taxes as well as local entites start to feel the crunch of their public employee pension promises that currently cannot be met.

The Socialization Of America Is Economically Impossible

derryb · July 5, 2012 1:15AM

Matt Taibaii weighs in on the LIBOR scandal

streeter · July 5, 2012 4:54AM

Please don't forget us peons in CAL.

+/-12% state income tax,

15.7% self employment tax

fed, and all the others.

It would be a miracle if it was ever below 50%.

$477 for failing to make a complete 2 second stop for a rt turn on red with cameras ALL OVER THE PLACE. AND your insurance gets jacked too boot. What a scam.

$175,000 a year for a firefighter.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a rant thread.

piecesofme · July 5, 2012 5:43AM

Some of you are implying that KUCH considered ALL taxes, he only said his "earnings".
I took it as only his income because he specifically said, "my earnings go to the government in taxes"...his EARNINGS. That leads me to believe he is not counting the taxes he pays for all of the other "stuff" that can be considered as income per say, just what he earns.
Now if he is taxed at 50% solely on his EARNINGS, from working at a job folks, not property income and other such forms of income, I'm talking about putting in a minimum of 8 hours at a job site 5 days a week minimum...if he is being taxed on those earnings at 50%, I WANT THAT JOB!

jmski52 · July 5, 2012 9:00AM

pieces, you're mincing words.

If he has no other income besides earned income, then his statement is valid. If he has a pile of unearned income, then I suppose you have a point. Most of my income is earned income per the IRS, and I would bet that easily over 50% of it is paid out in various types of tax.

Income Tax isn't the only kind of tax, and Kuch didn't specify only Income Tax. You're welcome.

piecesofme · July 5, 2012 9:47AM

Income Tax isn't the only kind of tax, and Kuch didn't specify only Income Tax.

You're correct, he did not specify, so until I hear otherwise, the way I read the statement by him is that he has a very well paying job and is fortunate enough to be in an earned income (wages) tax bracket of 50% tax rate. That's a pretty damn good job making a real nice wage.
Like I said earlier, I'm with him on alot of what he said, but being in that rate of taxable income is a blessing, not something to be upset about.
All if in fact that is the case. It's my interpretation of what was said at this point.

If it's not what he meant, then I would still say that ANYONE in a 50% taxed earned income bracket should count their blessings.

KUCH · July 5, 2012 10:48PM

To set the record straight, yes income is earned income, not capital gains or investment income. This earned income is the direct result of the hard work by all employees and employer. Everyone here is smart and has business sense. If 50% goes to taxes, how can a business hire more employees, invest in assets (inventory/equipment), pay for benefits, or give out raises? They can't, unless the game is rigged. The game is certainly rigged in certain industries. Think, the too big to fail crowd. Your're right, don't be mistaken and think no one is not grateful.

Hot off the press - June private sector jobs up 84,000. Unemployment 8.2% June, same as May. MOPE! I know of more people who lost jobs in June, than landed a job. Market going down, gold is now up from 20 minutes ago.

We've got to get out of the minset that taxes are needed to improve society. Not that it shouldn't be done, but it can't be done. The Republic is dead, there is no rule of law. Do you understand?

Got Gold?

piecesofme · July 6, 2012 1:00AM

We've got to get out of the minset that taxes are needed to improve society

The USSC just upheld Obamacare as a tax too! More fun on the way

Just the tip of the iceberg for the Libor rate manipulation issue

Comments