New viewpoint on shilling.....slow msg board day.
seebelow
Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭
Hi guys,
To stimulate some conversation on a slow day.
Now that I finally have been on the sellers side of an auction (major seller) I can see a certain aspect of bidding or, semantics, shilling. (Bad word)
First, I have NOT bid on my own auction, never have nor ever will.
But if anyone can answer this..because this is where it kind of gets tricky and i see a shillers side of it....the minority shiller that is because i think the majority of them are to "rig" the results. Some AH allow you to place a reserve on your item,,,ebay, lelends, mecum for cars, etc....others don't.
Or to make it simple, I see how some will bid in order to put in a minimum reserve for their card. Which is totally above board and acceptable with very reputable AH's. I can see that side of it. Who wants to take a $3000 hit on a $10k card because conditions weren't right, lack of advertising, misspelling in the title, or just bad timing?
What ruins it is when they abuse it and they shill it to get the maximum amount......I think that is the difference...and for the record i still will never bid on my own card,
To stimulate some conversation on a slow day.
Now that I finally have been on the sellers side of an auction (major seller) I can see a certain aspect of bidding or, semantics, shilling. (Bad word)
First, I have NOT bid on my own auction, never have nor ever will.
But if anyone can answer this..because this is where it kind of gets tricky and i see a shillers side of it....the minority shiller that is because i think the majority of them are to "rig" the results. Some AH allow you to place a reserve on your item,,,ebay, lelends, mecum for cars, etc....others don't.
Or to make it simple, I see how some will bid in order to put in a minimum reserve for their card. Which is totally above board and acceptable with very reputable AH's. I can see that side of it. Who wants to take a $3000 hit on a $10k card because conditions weren't right, lack of advertising, misspelling in the title, or just bad timing?
What ruins it is when they abuse it and they shill it to get the maximum amount......I think that is the difference...and for the record i still will never bid on my own card,
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all. 
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anyways....i didn't bid at all on the ryan although id be willing to pay waaaay over vcp to get that one back......tho really, if someone changes their mind I wouldn't have a problem if someone wanted their card back and willing to pay for it
It's preferable to hidden reserves because it's transparent. It's preferable to shilling because it's honest.
I guess it boils down to how one chooses to live his/her life. Some people can't help themselves when a seemingly easy opportunity to make cash arises, no matter how ethically horrific it may be. Personally speaking, I view it as a challenge whenever I take a hit. I tip my cap to the individual who made out like a bandit, and I make every attempt to learn from that experience.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As galaxy said, either start the sale at your minimum or let it ride from .01. I will never condone shilling in any way.
<< <i>you wouldn't believe the number of AH I've spoke to sell which hinted at different forms of shilling >>
I personally wouldn't deal with any AH, either as a bidder, or as a consignor, which engaged in such dishonest bidding practices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I pretty much hate the unknown reserve process - I rarely bid on items that have reserves anymore.
<< <i>you wouldn't believe the number of AH I've spoke to sell which hinted at different forms of shilling >>
Of course they would since their cut is a percentage of the total sale. The higher the sale goes the more $$ they make. Nobody wants to take a hit on a card, but that is the risk you take when you put one up for sales. I prefer to be above board with my dealings with others and provide a good experience, and that is why I only deal with a handful of people for sales and purchases. When things are transactional you are at the mercy of the ebb and flow of markets and prices. When things are built on relationships both parties benefit and the level of trust and satisfaction is much higher. I would rather make less selling to someone I know that has helped me out in the past because in the end that person will also have my best interests at hand when I am buying from them.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
I see your point though. You are looking at it with the thought that someone will "honestly" shill their own item only to the point of the "minimum bid" range, where as a "dishonest" shill bidder is simply driving the price up as far as they think they can to profit further.
Although it drives away bidders, reserve prices seem to be the best protection for sellers afraid that they won't get what they need. I guess ebay discourages the use of reserves by making you pay more as a way to promote the auction style bidding and to make sure they get a cut no matter if the item sells or not.
<< <i>Hi guys,
To stimulate some conversation on a slow day.
Now that I finally have been on the sellers side of an auction (major seller) I can see a certain aspect of bidding or, semantics, shilling. (Bad word)
First, I have NOT bid on my own auction, never have nor ever will.
But if anyone can answer this..because this is where it kind of gets tricky and i see a shillers side of it....the minority shiller that is because i think the majority of them are to "rig" the results. Some AH allow you to place a reserve on your item,,,ebay, lelends, mecum for cars, etc....others don't.
Or to make it simple, I see how some will bid in order to put in a minimum reserve for their card. Which is totally above board and acceptable with very reputable AH's. I can see that side of it. Who wants to take a $3000 hit on a $10k card because conditions weren't right, lack of advertising, misspelling in the title, or just bad timing?
What ruins it is when they abuse it and they shill it to get the maximum amount......I think that is the difference...and for the record i still will never bid on my own card, >>
I believe a higher hammer price is more likely with a no reserve auction because the more bidders you involve, the greater possibility people will outbid one another by going higher than they otherwise would. With a higher start price or with a BIN listing, that likelihood is greatly diminished, but that is the choice you make and if you want the benefit of the possibility of a bidding war, you ought to make that choice and honor it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>There is no rational way to honestly shill an item. It's fraud any way you look at it. >>
Amen!
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Hopefully the scare of what happened to Bill Mastro has made the big auction houses think twice about going down the road he took.
P.S. Wish I could get my money back from his dishonest acts.
<< <i>There is no rational way to honestly shill an item. It's fraud any way you look at it. >>
What if you were required to pay the consignment fee to "buy your card back"?
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no rational way to honestly shill an item. It's fraud any way you look at it. >>
What if you were required to pay the consignment fee to "buy your card back"? >>
Still dishonest, imo. As the chances are, even if the consignment company requires you to pay the full purchase amount to buy back the card, you're just going to consign it for sale again anyway. Otherwise, why consign it for sale in the first place? If you want the benefit of the no reserve auction format and the higher hammer prices that often accompany it, then have the guts to let it ride in that format. Otherwise, just start the item off at an opening bid you need to have to sell it in the first place.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I am strictly a buyer. Over a long time I have come to believe some sellers will only part with a card if they get a minimum amount for it. They may do it with a BIN, a minimum bid, a reserve, or by shilling. The ethics of these different avenues obviously differ, but the bottom line to me is the same. I always snipe with a price I am willing to pay for the item. I get it, or not. I don't worry about shilling anymore. I understand many disagree. That's ok too. Everyone has to follow their own path. >>
While I am not strictly a buyer. I agree with the above statement. I bid what I am comfortable paying and forget it.
Bid retractions are a bigger problem IMO and should be eliminated or at the very least regulated...........................one a year is enough.
I bid on the '71 Ryan, got crushed. I know you wanted that card back, but congrats on the 3X return. I think I picked up one of the other high end '71's though.
Shilling. A topic beat to death on these boards, but one that can support multiple in-depth discussions. IMO, you have to bid on each auction as if it were going to be shilled; and I believe there is a LOT more shilling going on than bidders think.
In my short 5+ years of buying, I've come to appreciate coming in 2nd. Hoping that the shiller won their own card is a wonderful feeling. the past year has been especially brutal. I believe I have 50-75 2nd place bid results on cards ranging from $100-$4000. Doesn't bother me because I'm chasing value, not sets. In most cases, I'm buying multiples, so if someone wants to pay 20% over VCP, I'm a happy camper coming in 2nd.
Still intrepid about the AH's. As I voiced my opinion on them before, hate the extended bidding, proprietary platform, no auto sniping, non-transparent bidders, reserves, etc. Bought my first card last month from an AH (Heritage). Why, oh why, would anyone invest in a proprietary auction bidding platform when e-bay already put billions into this. The maintenance, computers, updates, virus protection, security, data storage power, cooling, servers, hardware, malware, etc..... all can be outsourced for next to nothing on e-bay. This is where our economy is going. There would be one (IMO), and only one reason to have your own in-house bidding software, and that one reason is not good for buyers.
I'm primarily a PWCC guy, some Probstein, but PWCC has most of my business.
Its' been mostly a bull market in cards since I jumped on the train. Shilling pays for itself when cards are bumping +10% over a short period. Shillers can pay the commission, take the card back, and put it back on the market and shill again. However, when this market turns, there is going to be lots of low hanging fruit because shillers will get upside down in a hurry chasing the bottom when the bidiots are gone.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Have a question and this is pulling at my memory a little. Back when I first got on ebay in the late 1990's, I remember an ebay policy that allowed you to bid on your own item once for each listing....this was before reserve bids and BINS were even part of the ebay lexicon. Am I imagining this or was this really an old policy back in the day?
<< <i>you wouldn't believe the number of AH I've spoke to sell which hinted at different forms of shilling >>
Sadly, I wouldn't have any trouble believing any number up to and including 100%