Matt Harvey and his 180 inning pitch limit

Tomi

So Matt Harvey's doctor says that he needs to be shut down after pitching 180 innings this season. Of course his agent Scott Boras agrees since it's money in his pocket. Not sure how a doctor comes to that number but Harvey is in favor of it. I would look out for my arm too if I was a pitcher in the majors, but my beef is with the athletes of today, in this case today's pitchers. I remember guys like Gibson, Palmer, Maddux, Carlton, etc. pitching over 300 innings a season and many times going into the high 200's. These guys pitched quite a while ago (Maddux being an exception), but the advances in training and recovery would make me think that today's pitchers would be pitching more innings than their predecessors, but it's not even close. These guys from yesterday were just beasts compared to today's pitcher (in my opinion) and their legend grows on me every time I compare stats from yesterday and today. It just seems like today's pitchers are fragile compared to yesterday's pitcher.

Am I overblowing this or is this a fair assessment? It just seems like athletes get hurt more today even with the medical advances we have.

maddux69

You have a valid argument, the pitchers today are scrutinized over there pitch counts and their innings pitched. When I think of a pitcher and how much he is able to endure, his number of complete games will tell that story. Pitchers were taught to go the distance before and the expectation was if they are feeling well enough and their pitches are still effective that they would finish the game. If you look at the complete game leaders over the years, it tells quite a story. For the NL leader to have 6 CGs in 2014 and 5 in 2013/AL leader 5 in 2014 and 4 in 2013, that is almost comical. 30 years ago the NL Leader(Valenzuela) had 20 CGs and the AL leader(Candiotti) had 17.

CG Leaders By Year

grote15

It's all about the money~teams are making huge investments for hundreds of millions of dollars and are simply looking to protect their self-interest. Ironically, though, pitchers today are developing arm problems regardless of all the pitch counts and innings limit. IMO, the reason for that is twofold~one, guys are throwing harder at a younger age to hit the gun at 95 mph, and more breaking balls before they are fully developed, and two, guys are pitching all year round, whereas years ago, most pitchers shut down for the winter. In the case of Harvey, though, I think it's completely hypocritical for Matt to side with Boras and consider quitting on his team in the middle of a pennant race after he publicly criticized the 6-man rotation the Mets were going to emply to reduce his workload. This is also same guy who claimed he'd try and pitch late last season, though the Mets quickly scrapped that idea. Remember when the Nats shut down Strausburg before the playoffs? A lot of good it did them~he's oft-injured anyway and the Nats are still looking for that World Series berth. I really hope I don't have to consider Matt Harvey a quitter going forward, but I guess that's just the reality of the game these days~it's all business.

jackstraw

All the more reason why it will continue to lose popularity going forward.. Hot topic last week was about a guy
who played in 1919.....

craig44

Part of the reason pitchers don't go latter in games is because nearly every pitch is high intensity, max effort. When you are red lining your arm on nearly every pitch, something has to give. The modern pitcher has not developed quality secondary pitches and relies on strait gas. The pitchers of the past also seemed to locate better than modern pitchers. Sacrificing speed for location.

PaulMaul

If Harvey and Boras had been forthright in February about a hard 180 inning cap, the Mets would at least have had the option of planning for it. While their post season prospects are a bit of a surprise, Alderson seems to be hearing 180 for the first time. Putting the decision on Harvey is a good idea, because if he shuts himself down he's done in NY and looks like a wuss. Mets fans will not be able to stomach it.

BigRed7

I'm sure they're willing to shutdown the paycheck also, though this may be true because they are after the next big contract.

grote15

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets trade him for a bonafide slugger this offseason, if he shuts himself down. His legacy will be toast in NY and Alderson doesn't particularly care for him anyway

gosteelers

IIRC, Strasburg wanted to pitch in the 2012 playoffs, but the Nats would not allow it. Seems odd that Harvey would come out and speak directly that he does not want to pitch. As Tim mentioned, he would (should) be as good as gone if he truly does not want to pitch in the postseason.

Edited to add: I know as a Pirates fan, I would be pissed if Cole said, 'I don't want to pitch in the Wild Card game because I passed my innings limit'...

Dboneesq

<< <i>I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets trade him for a bonafide slugger this offseason, if he shuts himself down. His legacy will be toast in NY and Alderson doesn't particularly care for him anyway >>


+1 - It's a shame that it's come down to this. As a Met fan for longer than a lot of you have been alive, it is a real exciting year. And to know that if they made the playoffs that they could use a three man rotation of deGrom, Harvey and Syndergaard ... WOW. THAT would probably give them a real good chance to win it all. If he does shut it down, hopefully Colon (man, the old guy has been pitching well lately) and Matz would make it a pretty good 4 man rotation.

Also, if he shuts it down I hope that his teammates get PISSED at him. You know what would be great? Put the jerk in the bullpen and let him pitch the 6th and 7th innings next year. Pull him from the rotation. However, I believe that he signed a one year contract for this year, so that would not be possible. Can't pay him big bucks to pitch middle relief. SOOOO, as Tim said, would be nice to get another slugger for him in a trade.

Of course, I hope he doesn't stop at 180.

mtcards

Wonder if his agent would have a problem if the Mets stopped paying him after 180 innings.

grote15

Looks like Harvey has come to his senses~good news for Mets fans!

Harvey states "I will pitch in the playoffs. I will be healthy, active and ready to go." He also notes that he, his doctors, Sandy Alderson and the Mets organization are all on the same page, and they they'll work together to decide on an innings limit for Harvey during the regular season. While it's a messy situation that has unnecessarily played out in the court of public opinion, it sounds as though all parties are now on the same page and ready to move forward, with the star right-hander available for the postseason.

seebelow

(why not a pitch limit vs inning limit? eh semantics.)

Either way, he's always been a diva and self-centered. Anyone catch how he treated Dan Patrick (from ESPN)? I figured the playoff agreement is damage control. In his defense, its probably difficult to handle all the fame and attention in NY's media market so early in his career. May be too little too late in a lot of fans minds.

Dboneesq

Tim ... I'm glad that Harvey is making his first start after this controversy on the Road. If he was at Home, I think he would get quite a few BOOS when he took the mound for the first time.

Hey, I guess he is still a kid and really didn't know who to listen to. I hope his recent statement that he will be pitching in the Playoffs (if they make it) is his final decision.

totallyradd

How are teams supposed to deal with this moving on in the future? It's sure to be a topic again. If a guy is stuck at 180 innings, and they see the team making the playoffs, does that guy not start pitching until May with an extended spring training?

I think it's ridiculous for a guy/agent to pull this. If they were in the cellar it'd be different, but a chance at a run in playoffs is no guarantee, and immediately thought of the Strasburg situation a few years back. Fans musta been losing their minds.

Slabbed

Tell that pitch count to Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Spahn, Seaver, and all of the rest that are in the hall of fame. Pitch count that is for the pitchers with agent's that want more money.

grote15

It's all about the money. Guys weren't making literally hundreds of millions of dollars years ago.

The innings count is due to him coming off TJ surgery, an injury that would have ended the career of a pitcher 40-50 years ago. My beef with Harvey, though, is that you acted like Superman all season, criticizing the 6-man rotation and skipped starts to lessen your load, but now you spring this on the team at the 11th hour??

grote15

<< <i>Tell that pitch count to Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Spahn, Seaver, and all of the rest that are in the hall of fame. Pitch count that is for the pitchers with agent's that want more money. >>



Terry Collins has done a much better job than you predicted back in April~you wanted to run him out of town and now he is a viable candidate for manager of the year.

fergie23

Lots of shortsighted fans posting to this thread.

The Mets don't actually care about his longevity and health only he and his agent do. If his doctor(s) think he should shut it down then he should shut it down. If this was a conversation about anything other than sports not a single sane adult would be saying ignore your doctors advice and jeopardize your career and health.

Robb

grote15

His doctors are not saying he should shut it down. Boras is. The innings cap was always a soft one and as illustrated earlier, innings pitched is not same as pitch count, either. Because of Harvey's lower pitch count per inning relative to the other pitchers in Boras' so called study, he can easily reach 200 IP with same total pitches thrown.

Slabbed

April of last year 2014 yes I would have gotten rid of Collins. This year one word Yoenis Cespedes best ball player the Mets have ever seen or had on a team and after this year they will let him go and be a free agent.

grote15

LOL, Collins wants a written apology from you, Slabbed. Alderson, too.

No room for you on the bandwagon, either.

seebelow

Harvey....same ol Harvey....its playoff time and he's the only team member to miss a mandatory workout due to "traffic". Then changed his excuse when that didn't over well. The team told him to just turn around and go home. The entire story sounds like theres something more to it. He may not be there much longer. A short time ago he was NYs darling.

"Im just here to honor Qualcom"

PM770

Toward the end of the season, I was wondering if the Mets were going to leave him off the playoff roster. How long is he "allowed" to pitch in Game 3? Would he be available in a 20 inning Game 5 if it comes to that?

baseballfan

it appears he's wearing out his welcome. of course I think his agent has something to do with that.

this kid could be terrific but something is up with him

PM770

<< <i>it appears he's wearing out his welcome. of course I think his agent has something to do with that.

this kid could be terrific but something is up with him >>



He's got to be killing his market value, right? Are teams going to be willing to pay top market value for a guy who, through his agent, whined about cracking an arbitary inning limit in the middle of a surprising pennat race?

thebaseballcardkid

Very well said. I have to agree. But he probably doesn't have a clue. His agent isn't helping him. PR wise. Then again he doesn't help himself either.

grote15

He'll be fine. He pitched into the 8th inning in the division clincher, which I give him credit for. Don't forget, he's still a kid.

seebelow

I agree and see your point on he's just a kid. Unfortunately, we see it often that too much too soon is thrust upon these budding stars. Cover of magazines, dark knight of gotham, dating supermodels, TV spots and perhaps questionable advice from those who may not have his best interests in mind (agent, hanger-ons) onto someone who is too young and immature to handle all of this.

I hope its not a a bright shining star that flickers out too soon. Still yet to be written. And not a Strawberry or Gooden vs a Jeter.

yankeesman

I don't know if this means anything but I just saw an interview with Mariah Carey and when asked about Harvey she said "Wow. What a diva."

LarkinCollector

<< <i>I don't know if this means anything but I just saw an interview with Mariah Carey and when asked about Harvey she said "Wow. What a diva." >>


Lots of comedians today