Watching your favorite player in decline

BLUEJAYWAY

Your views on when your favorite player,from any sport,stayed too long in the arena. How painful was it to watch and who was the player. Although no boxers make my favorite #1(except Ali is in my top 10) I do believe that they do stay too long in their sport judging by the beatings some have taken late in their careers. For baseball, Willie Mays may have hung on a bit too long. IIRC my fav. player,Stan Musial, was not an embaressment to himself at the end of his career.

sparky64

Timely thread if you're a Tiger Woods fan.
+10 today? Man oh man.

He may be scoundrel but I miss the days when your choices were Tiger or the field.

keets

sort of the opposite of what you thread is about, but the player that I think got out at perhaps the peak of his career, with many years left, was Jim Brown. of course it was an easy choice --- get tackled by Dick Butkus or make movies in Hollywood with hot chicks.

timpatg

Since golf is mentioned, watching some of the greatest of all time like Palmer and Nicklaus plodding around the course in majors and struggling to shoot 85 was always sad to me.

grote15

Nicklaus won the Open at age 46. Palmer could probably beat Tiger 1 on 1 right now, lol..

orioles93

One of my favorite players growing up was Ichiro. He was amazing to watch in his prime when he first came to the mlb. He has since tapered off in recent years. Still a good player but nothing close to what he was in the early 2000's.

SDSportsFan

For me, it would be Steve Carlton. His last three years, with the Giants, White Sox, Indians and Twins were brutal

On the other hand, the end of Nolan Ryan's career was just a complete shock, but not really any less painful. Still throwing smoke, he starts a game in Seattle and blows out his elbow in the first inning. Never pitched again

Ryan was and still is my favorite player of all time, and Carlton was and still is my 2nd-favorite pitcher.


Steve

Piggs

<< <i>For me, it would be Steve Carlton. His last three years, with the Giants, White Sox, Indians and Twins were brutal

On the other hand, the end of Nolan Ryan's career was just a complete shock, but not really any less painful. Still throwing smoke, he starts a game in Seattle and blows out his elbow in the first inning. Never pitched again

Ryan was and still is my favorite player of all time, and Carlton was and still is my 2nd-favorite pitcher.


Steve >>



I was at that game in the Kingdome. Gave up a grand slam to some no name Mariner in the first and that was it.

sparky64

<< <i>One of my favorite players growing up was Ichiro. He was amazing to watch in his prime when he first came to the mlb. He has since tapered off in recent years. Still a good player but nothing close to what he was in the early 2000's. >>


Ichiro is the man. So talented.

Now days it seems that teams will cut guys before they reach that inevitable embarrassing state.
Cut or offer Rookie type contracts to force retirement.

Some a little early like Bernie Williams. I think he had at least one good year left.

Barndog

<< <i>Nicklaus won the Open at age 46. Palmer could probably beat Tiger 1 on 1 right now, lol.. >>



Nicklaus won the Masters at age 46. His last US Open was 1980 (putting him at about 40 years old for that tournament)

sparky64

I've seen the decline of race car drivers.
Former champions and perennial contenders are eventually overtaken by younger, hungrier drivers less fearful of taking chances.

Edit: Holy messed up.

skrezyna23

<< <i>I was at that game in the Kingdome. Gave up a grand slam to some no name Mariner in the first and that was it. >>



No namer was Dann Howitt

keets

I never really cared for Ichiro and have wondered why he wasn't watched closer, there have been multiple times when he was out of the box when he made contact. that was his game, striding towards first as he slapped for the hole. I will give credit where credit is due and say that he had superlative bat control but now in his declining years he has taken to silly mannerisms at the plate in between pitches. that sort of thing is almost expected any more once a player becomes established. the home fans love it and everyone else sort of hates it.

Ichiro is sort of a modern day Rod Carew without the grace, class and playing in an era where the hit-and-run is almost a lost art. as a lefty Ichiro could have been a Master at that 30 years ago with his hand/bat control. I guess I like what he does, just not the way he does it.

seebelow

when it really sets in is seeing them in anothers colors....trying to extend the career, another paycheck (don't blame them)

franco harris in seattle blue
montano in rivals kc jersey

gregmo32

Watching Kareem his last season really made me sad, despite my fanboy denials.
Then Sports Illustrated even ran a cover story about his steep decline, which made matters worse for me.
Of course, he was 40, and at the end of arguably the best career to date in his sport.

orioles93

<< <i>Ichiro is sort of a modern day Rod Carew without the grace, class and playing in an era where the hit-and-run is almost a lost art./q]

When did Ichiro ever not show grace or class? I would consider him one of the classiest and most humble players in the bigs.

orioles93

double post

orioles93

triple post

keets

I guess it's the "posing" that goes along with modern players that I dislike.

Skin2

I like Ichiro for what he is. I dislike his fans, for thinking what he is.

Those ridiculous claims of 'one of the all-time greatest hitters' are grating. If by 'one' of the all-time greatest MLB hitters, they mean the 1,200th best in MLB history, then sure....but there are actually guys claiming top 100 etc... I went through that in detail in the past, anyone that disagrees can see all the rebuttals in that thread.

I will be happy when he retires with less than 3,000 hits so that all his foolish fans can't make the ridiculous claim of "most professional hits in history" when they add his Japan stats...because Rose will still have more hits than him even when those Japan hits are added.

The funny thing about the people that add the Japan stats, they tend to forget that Rose had 400+ hits in the minor leagues...so those professional hits would count in his favor, making that entire argument moot anyway.

Regardless, total hits are a HORRIBLE measurement for hitters. Horrible.

The next funny thing about the people that claim Ichiro lost all his stats due to Japan was that had he started his life in the U.S. he is just as likely not to even get drafted, and if so, he had a very strong possibility of spending his first four years in MLB as a pinch runner/pinch hitter/defensive replacement, as he would have been a starter, had he not built up a reputation in Japan and been paid all that money forcing him to be a starter.

Also, that is also a moot point, because when you look at the prime of his hitting career, it isn't really that impressive. His prime OPS+ wasn't anything special at all. Again, all laid out before.

Carry on.

dallasactuary

<< <i>I like Ichiro for what he is. I dislike his fans, for thinking what he is. >>


Amen.

Here are Ichiro's top 10 OBP and SLG for seasons with enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title:

0.414 0.465
0.396 0.457
0.388 0.455
0.386 0.436
0.381 0.436
0.370 0.431
0.361 0.425
0.359 0.416
0.352 0.394
0.350 0.390

Those are respectable numbers, although they compare rather unfavorably to most any HOFer. What do HOF numbers look like? Check these out:

0.438 0.533
0.425 0.507
0.415 0.485
0.409 0.479
0.405 0.462
0.397 0.454
0.393 0.436
0.385 0.435
0.380 0.410
0.366 0.403

0.417 0.569
0.415 0.534
0.402 0.532
0.397 0.522
0.388 0.487
0.378 0.484
0.376 0.476
0.375 0.463
0.364 0.456
0.358 0.454

0.425 0.535
0.422 0.525
0.411 0.500
0.410 0.484
0.408 0.481
0.387 0.468
0.383 0.466
0.377 0.454
0.375 0.424
0.374 0.424


You'll note that not only do these three players beat Ichiro in each and every season (better best, better second-best, etc.) at both OBP and SLG, they beat him by a lot. And I'll admit that I probably misled you, because none of these three are HOFers. So what did I do, find three guys from the 30's who played in hitter's parks? No. The measure that baseball-reference uses to measure ease of the hitting environment is called AIR, where 100 is historically average. Ichiro's AIR happens to be 100, and the AIR for the other three are 94, 101 and 98, respectively. In other words, this is an apples-to-apples comparison to three other players who are not in the HOF, and Ichiro is beeyotch-slapped by all three. Ichiro got an MVP he didn't deserve (not even close), but he was close to deserving one once (in 2004). Players 1 through 3 also never got an MVP, although 1 and 3 were very close once or twice, and number 2 actually did deserve one once.

Ichiro is a good baseball player. He is not a great baseball player, and he is nowhere near a HOF-caliber baseball player. If you want to enjoy him for the 98-pound weakling who runs fast that he is, that's fine, just don't bring his name up when great baseball players are being discussed. It's insulting to great baseball players, and to baseball.

Oh, the three players above are Ken Singleton, Dwight Evans and Minnie Minoso. I consider all three of these to be great baseball players, and if you agree that Ichiro isn't nearly as good as any of them, then my remarks here are not addressed to you.