Wish I was a member here before I sold this...

OnWithTheHunt

The only photo I have left of this 1890 CC, part of a collection I sold for someone a few years back. IT appeared to me that the scratches on the ear and eagle breast lined up obverse and reverse. I tried to research it to determine whether that made it some kind of rare VAM worth thousands but was unsuccessful. Did I blow it?

blu62vette

You didnt blow it. Looks like roller lines from a weak strike.

Lewy

I agree, you didn't blow it. That is PMD.

pheh

<< <i>I agree, you didn't blow it. That is PMD. >>



FWIW... Roller marks are not considered PMD. And, depending on the issue in question, may not be considered a detraction at all.

Lewy

Yes, understood, roller marks from the draw bench are achieved before the coin enters the press. Roller marks will also show some distortion after strike rather than the straight grain lines displayed here.

pheh

As I understand roller marks, particularly when applied to weakly struck Morgan dollars, they are virtually always straight. Susan Headley gives a fine example of the anomaly here. Regardless, not a VAM due to the striations shown. The VAM-4 Tailbar is the big boy for the issue, and if the OP had one of those in mint state he let go... indeed he would be kicking himself.

Barndog

another example, here on a half dime

Lewy

Good example Barndog. After long second looks at the OP's coin, I think that maybe it could well be just that, but it is rather hard to tell. As you say though pheh, unless this coin was a tailbar, he/she probably did no wrong. Thanks for the link as well. It was an interesting read until I got to this example of roller marks, (copied from that link site, / not my coin).

OnWithTheHunt

Thanks to all for the great info, and fortunately, there was no tailbar on this one

gsaguy

Did you say 1890-CC? If so, that's the rare and elusive "vertical lines through the ear" VAM 007 if I recall correctly. Worth millions to the right guy.

I'm not that guy.

Lewy

I was really hoping someone would have more comments here so I could learn a little bit more about these things, but since that didn't happen and I still have questions, please let me ask them, not out of argumentative arrogance, but in an effort to build my own knowledge base of my education in Roller Lines-101.

There have been so far three different coins pictured above, and I still have doubts that any of them are to be what they claim. Hopefully I didn't ruffle any feathers with that statement, but I still don't understand what is being presented, and really I would like to understand and learn from the big dogs, so let me ask a question or two of Barndog about that half dime please:

The half dime is very beautiful, and what I consider to be fully struck given what appears (from the photo) to be high relief in virtually all areas of the coin. If this is so, would this not contradict the notion of roller marks being caused by a weak strike? Why would metal strike up nicely on either side of a roller line, but not into it?

If roller marks are present in the planchet before strike, would they cause what appears (from the photo) to be metal displacement in the area that I have pointed out on the following photo of your coin? Once again, I really hope that you do not take my questions in a manner other than from an inquiring mind of a novice who wants to learn.

















Next , let me explain why I originally thought the OP's coin to be PMD. I noticed black marks that coincided with what I believed to be the creation of the marks as I have outlined in the following picture:






Finally, this picture,(which I have rotated) came from the link provided earlier in the thread to explain to me about roller marks. I really do not understand this entire line of reasoning at all, as illustrated and explained from the link. Does anyone believe this to be correct? :




Roller marks on a Morgan Dollar. Note how the parallel lines continue beneath the devices; they were on the planchet before the coin was struck.
Photo courtesy of Charlie Chapman in Lincoln, NE.

Light roller marks can be seen on this 1921-S Morgan Dollar. These types of roller marks can be easily confused with coin cleaning marks, but the key diagnostics here are:

* Marks on the field go below the devices, not across them.


* The marks are parallel, rather than random or circular.

An interesting variation sometimes seen with roller marks is evident here, which makes this specimen especially easy for the novice to confuse with cleaning marks: the force of the strike has caused a little bit of minor distortion in the usually very straight and parallel roller marks. However, there is no question as to the source of these marks, because cleaning marks cannot go beneath the devices.

pheh

Happy to oblige with my limited knowledge. While I referenced Headley's image of a roller-marked-Morgan, it is not the one you pictured. What I am seeing on the coin you reference from her site appear to be die file lines, not roller marks. I don't always agree with everything she posts on that blog, but she does a good job for her audience and the image which I referenced in my post is 100% certainly a example of roller marks.

Roller marks are caused when the metal strips are pulled through draw bars for flattening. The reason they are commonly seen on the high points of weakly struck dollars is because this is the area of the coin which which receives the least pressure from the strike. Hence, on those weakly struck areas the preexisting striations (roller marks) are not flattened.

Hope this helps...

(Bonus FWIW)
Regarding the 21-S you have pictured. Check out this page: 1921's VAMS on VamWorld. The 1921-S has a plethora of die file reverses.

Die file lines will virtually always run under devices because the devices on the die are incuse. Thus, the file virtually never actually hits the device. When a filed die then strikes a planchet the incuse file lines on the die transfer to the planchet as raised lines which appear to run "under" the device. Of course, they aren't actually under there, but that is the effect created.

Edited: typo.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Did you say 1890-CC? If so, that's the rare and elusive "vertical lines through the ear" VAM 007 if I recall correctly. Worth millions to the right guy.

I'm not that guy. >>



This puts a smile on my workface today.

coindeuce

The Morgan reverse(1921-S) quadrant image above(wing edge out to rim) shows die polishing lines, not roller marks. Roller marks almost exclusively appear on relief devices of a coin. Conversely, die polishing lines are almost without exception seen only in the fields of Morgan and Peace dollars. The image that Lewy posted can be attributed to 1921-S VAM 1AA from Vamworld.com.

RWB

The design elements are raised on the coin and incuse on the die. Therefore, metal flows into the recesses of the die after it has been moved from the fields. Any defects on the planchet will be obliterated in the fields and remain only in the die recesses if the piece is improperly struck.

“Draw” or “roller” marks appear only on the highest parts of the design and are analogous to adjustment marks seen on early US silver and gold. These lines are nearly always parallel and have rounded intersections with the devices due to movement of the metal.

Parallel lines in the fields are caused by polishing and other die repair techniques.

PS: Coins also acquire roller marks when placed on railroad tracks and run over – but these are a post-mint phenomenon.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

THose are die polish lines on the 1921 Morgan, not roller marks.

As to what you pointed out as potential displaced metal, that's just an effect of the lighting in the photo. None of the "displaced metal" is raised above the surface of the coin.

Lewy

Okay, thanks very much pheh, deuce, RWB, and GoldenEye. You 'all' make very good sense to me. That pretty much clears up everything except how these roller lines can repel metal flow during full strike on normal planchet.

Up to this point, everything that I felt that I knew about die scratches and roller lines has been based on speculation and assumption on my part. Trying to reason out things that just had to be so. This is a treat for me to receive affirmation as to my thoughts.

Yes, we are all in agreement on the 1921-S being a victim of die scratches rather than roller lines despite as to what may be said to the contrary.

Pheh, if you say that the particular coin that you intended the link to is "100% certainly a example of roller marks", then I shall certainly take 'your' word for it without question.

Coindeuce, that was a remarkable attribution to 1AA made solely on die polishing lines in one small area of the reverse. I had previously looked at several vams to try to match it up, but was unable to. Excellent eye, very impressive.

Your definition of roller lines mirrors exactly my own conceived thoughts RWB.

You bring up an excellent point about lighting in photos GoldenEye. I am bitten more often than not by my interpretation of online photos. That is why I questioned it as tactfully as I knew how. In this case, the half dime 'appeared' to me to be a full strike, and my perceived depth of these lines in relation to the ample metal flow on either side of these lines was suspect to me. If you feel that this coin is flatly struck though, I will abandon any further thought on it and chalk it up to my poor photo eye.

Thanks again every one for helping me to 'know' rather than just 'assume'.

keets

it looks like nothing more than unstruck planchet flaws.

Lewy

Yeah, I think that is the general consensus.