"The Castle Collection takes over as #1 in the Indian Cent Registry

EagleEye

Indian Cents Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1859-1909)


Indian Cents with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes (1859-1909)



This collection was assembled through Eagle Eye and is mostly all Photo Sealed.

Edited to add: No, the 1861 MS68 is not in the set. Being that Stewart has displayed his set, and it is a fine (no - GREAT) set, this collection has been selected for quality and in my opinion, is as nice and in some cases better than Stewarts. And in some cases, Stewart has the best coin. I am the only one who has seen both sets.

I changed the title for the last few days to add the suggested title that wondercoin made as a nod of friendship to Stewart.

DIMEMAN

Wish we could see them.

illini420

Definitely wish we could see photos, but I couldn't even see what coins/grades made up the set. Bet it's pretty sweet though!!!

STONE

Woah, now that's a big accomplishment.
I remember when the Epstein collection was broken up and saying that an equal or finer collection may never be built.
Well, looks like I underestimated the drive of the collector who assembled the "Castle Collection"

Kudos to you, mystery collector

2ndCharter

Big whoops - no pictures, no listing, no names.

Move along - nothing to see here.......

BWRC

Congrats Rick!

I didn't think anyone would surpass Epstein, well done

BW

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

#1 My A$$ .... What does this guy have that is better than mine ? And they are all Photo Sealed ? Whoop dee doo

Time for a Showdown Rick !

Tell your boy to come out of the closet.

BTW Where are his Flying Eagle Cents ?

Does he collect patterns or are they over his head ?

Stewart Blay

ProofCents

I'm guessing he has both MS68's

jacktheknife

Wow, Stewart has been overtaken in both Lincolns and Indians this year. Honestly, I thought I would never see the day.

Would love to see the display ("showdown") at FUN.

Jack

WaterSport

Any chance of this person doing Lincolns???Now that would be a stellar match.

WS

EagleEye

Yes, of course he has the MS68's. As well as the finest 1888/7 (MS-64RB) and 1873 Doubled Liberty MS65RB.

I had to edit my post because the 1861 MS68 is not photo sealed, however the 1899 MS68RD is. Both are necessary to overcome Epstein.

Stewart, we'll leave the Flying Eagles to you for now.

Steve

This thread is a perfect example of how participating in the PCGS Set Registry can have both positive and negative reactions from different participants and different viewers of the registry. To those who are actively involved in this particular Set Registry like Stewart and the owner of the Castle Collection, as well as Rick Snow I guess, it is a battle as to who has the better set. We all know the ratings are based strictly on assigned grades by PCGS and NOT on how the coins actually look to a broad section of collectors (ie) eye appeal. So who REALLY knows who is No 1? And what makes this even more arbitrary is the fact that neither of these gentlemen chose to display the grades of the coins in their collection, let alone, show us pictures of the coins. I personally admire people like Stewart Blay who for a LONG time has collected the finest copper coins he could find and has participated actively on these coin forums and sharing his knowledge with us. I personally do NOT like it when collectors, including Stewart, post into the PCGS Set Registry but withhold details from the collectors who want to admire a top collection. Under the rules, they have the right to post how they want into the Set Registry, but I for one have much more appreciation for someone like Peter Miller whose display of his Indian cent collection with major varieties can be appreciated by all of us collectors who view the PCGS Set Registry. JMHO. Steve

jacktheknife

I share some of Steve's sentiments. Stewart Blay is hands down the greatest US small cent collector of all time. Period. His collection may no longer rank #1, but I know of no other collector/investor/person with his passion, knowledge, and eye for quality. Numerically, his sets have been surpassed. However, Stewart has assembled his collection PERSONALLY over many years with a passionate eye on the finest quality.

I absolutely applaud the "Castle Collector" on his/her achievement. However, the registry creates the impression that the #1 set is the greatest collection. That is far from the truth..

Jack

illini420

<< <i>

I absolutely applaud the "Castle Collector" on his/her achievement. However, the registry creates the impression that the #1 set is the greatest collection. That is far from the truth..

Jack >>




May be true, but how can you say that the Castle set isn't really the best without seeing it??? PCGS says it's the best set based on the grades they have assigned to the coins, and if Rick has photosealed them all, I believe he is also saying each those grades are appropriate. Doesn't that count at all??? I mean unless one of the lower rated sets has a few coins that would without a doubt upgrade upon resubmission, it seems unfair to say that to calling the Castle set the #1 set would be "far from the truth."

EagleEye

I've seen Stewart's set and I've seen the Castle set. Some of Stewart's coins are certainly the finest. However the Castle collection is certainly not a "holder" collection. The collector had a basic 65RD/66RD set and some where not great. He upgraded and upgraded, sometimes from a non-photosealed coin to a photoseal coin in the same grade.

In the Central States auction got him the 1877 MS66RD (PS), 1861 MS-68 and 1899 MS68RD (PS) among a few others. This put him over the top.

renomedphys

Well, I'm just going to say "DANG!" and "CONGRATS!" to Rick and the owner of this obviously fine collection. Reading a little further into the posts above, I can certainly understand Stewart's sentiment, as well as his stance. Stewart has been collecting the "coin and not the holder" for more than 20 (30?) years, and has somehow managed to pick up the majority of the finest seen coins in every issue, even if they aren't the most highly graded. It doesn't happen often, but on a few occasions the lower graded coin can be the more desirable or the better match for your set overall. Other times, you just don't have access to the coin you really want because it is either owned by someone else, or the bidding goes outside of what you consider reasonable.

Now shake hands, and go find some more monster coins to buy.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Hey Rick,

You bought the 1861 in ms 68 for him and we both conferred the coin was no better than a 66. I remember you also told me that you told him that some of the coins you won at auction for him would not photo seal. Now I hear differently. Do you want to get his coins CAC'd ? Then they can be subject to a fifth party grading.

Is he open to an exhibition(or Showdown) of his Indian Cents ?

Stewart

illini420

<< <i> Do you want to get his coins CAC'd ? Then they can be subject to a fifth party grading.
>>



If there is a PS on the coin, it automatically gets a CAC if submitted to them. That is my understanding.

jacktheknife

Maybe I am having some difficulty articulating my point.

It is without a doubt ( the numbers speak for themselves) that "Mr/Mrs Castle" has assembled (or possibly that Mr Snow has assembled for Mr/Mrs Castle) a group of coins with a higher weighted grade average than any other set. That is not in dispute.
However, Stewart Blay has for the past 23 or so years doggedly studied and made himself an undisputed expert in his field. Over those years he has attended most major shows and auctions ( I know, I was at many of them) and PERSONALLY examined thousands of coins. His collection has been built slowly and meticulously with an expert eye on the finest quality. In the end, it is his set and his set alone. A true collector's collection.

Put another way, ask any serious US small cent collector which pedigree they would rather have in their collection, Blay or any other...


Jack

ProofCents

<< <i>Put another way, ask any serious US small cent collector which pedigree they would rather have in their collection, Blay or any other... >>

PCcoins

Maybe a stupid question but what does photoseal mean. I'm guessing you can't view any of the pictures in the registry set?

"If there is a PS on the coin, it automatically gets a CAC if submitted to them. That is my understanding."

and what do PS mean?

I agree it's not all about the top pop graded coins. I prefer rainbow toned or coins with a nice "skin" on them over white coins or Red Copper And would rather lose 1 point on the grade and have the eye appeal then to have a higher graded coin that's blast white.

illini420

Photo Seal

EagleEye

If there is a PS on the coin, it automatically gets a CAC if submitted to them. That is my understanding.

The actual statement is more along the lines of "If it has a Photo Seal the will buy it at their bid, meaning they will honor it as if it had a CAC sticker." There is an unnecessary duplication in getting two stickers.


How do you like that pop report and look up section - that's new!


You bought the 1861 in ms 68 for him and we both conferred the coin was no better than a 66. I remember you also told me that you told him that some of the coins you won at auction for him would not photo seal.

See may post above about the 1861. It is not photosealed.

pennyannie

Photo Sealed is the same as being CAC beaned, or there is no reason to submit for a bean?

Congrats on the new set, i too would like to see pictures. All the top sets are truly wonderful and different collectors will see the same coin differently.

MAYBE STEWARD CAN COME UP WITH HIS OWN SEAL OF APPROVAL FOR CENT COINS. ALL THE PAPERWORK COULD BE IN CAPS.

This could get interesting around here. I would love to see the people behind these new number 1 collections start participating on these forums or at least show off some of the coins.

DMWJR

The coins speak for themselves individually. I would love to attend another showdown. The last IHC showdown was awesome. I would imagine many would be back, just rearranged in different sets.

A real showdown would have each collector laying down his/her date coin, comparing the two, arguing over the merits of each, and then deciding the better coin. After all dates are tallied, a winner would emerge.

wondercoin

If a coin like the 1861 MS68 is "no better than an MS66" (and Rick agrees?) and it is the coin (or one of 2 or 3 coins) that knocked SB's set out of 1st place in the registry, then perhaps the name of this thread might be more appropriately entitled:

"The Castle Collection takes over as #1 in the Indian Cent Registry although SB's set is still considered #1 for quality out there". Anyone disagree?

Wondercoin

pennyannie

<< <i>If a coin like the 1861 MS68 is "no better than an MS66" (and Rick agrees?) and it is the coin (or one of 2 or 3 coins) that knocked SB's set out of 1st place in the registry, then perhaps the name of this thread might be more appropriately entitled:

"The Castle Collection takes over as #1 in the Indian Cent Registry although SB's set is still considered #1 for quality out there". Anyone disagree?

Wondercoin >>



I had that same thought

You have a coin in a set that at least 2 of the TOP experts say is a full 2 points overgraded. What did this coin sell for?

renomedphys

<< <i>Do you want to get his coins CAC'd ? Then they can be subject to a fifth party grading.

Is he open to an exhibition(or Showdown) of his Indian Cents ?

Stewart >>


Dayum! The sarcasm runs thick! We all know your feelings about CAC and copper.



<< <i>I agree it's not all about the top pop graded coins. I prefer rainbow toned or coins with a nice "skin" on them over white coins or Red Copper And would rather lose 1 point on the grade and have the eye appeal then to have a higher graded coin that's blast white >>



Hey, it's nice to hear some commensurable thought on the subject!

EagleEye

The post above says the 1861 is not photosealed. It is hardly a bad coin, just not the show-stopper you should expect for the finest graded example.

A quick search of the Central States auction by Heritage should bring it up.

Connecticoin

<< <i>Big whoops - no pictures, no listing, no names.

Move along - nothing to see here....... >>



I tend to agree with this -- what are we supposed to say -- "Wow that's an awesome set rating!"?

STONE

Linky
While the '61 looks very nice (67+) from the pics, I will defer to the experts who say 66

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Rick - $63,000 + for an 1861 copper nickel is moon money (or plastic money). My 1861 in ms 66 is equal in quality

What about the 1888 in ms 67 red that he owns ? no ps there either My ms 66 red is better

What about the mysterious 1909 S in ms 67 red ? no ps either I like my ms 66 red I bought from you in the 90's much better

I am itching for a "Showdown" with your dude....... What do you say ??????


Stewart

tradedollarnut

Sometimes, there's no question that a coin in a lower graded holder is equivalent or better than one in a higher graded holder. Sometimes it's ownership adding a point. And sometimes it's one person valuing a particular attribute [such as strike] more than the TPG who graded the coin did.

I suspect that with such a long series in this instance it's a bit of all three - a showdown is always interesting.

BigMoose

With those two hits on the cheek the 1861 sure doesn't look like a 68 to me.

JBN

As a 'newbie', I never understood the reason why some registry collections are such that one cannot even look at a listing of coins and grade.

All you are left with is a name on the listing.

Doesn't make any real impression on me - nor would I imagine it matters much to others looking at the registry listings.

I would simply ask those who have such collections on the registry listing - what is the point, please?

tradedollarnut

<< <i>As a 'newbie', I never understood the reason why some registry collections are such that one cannot even look at a listing of coins and grade.

All you are left with is a name on the listing.

Doesn't make any real impression on me - nor would I imagine it matters much to others looking at the registry listings.

I would simply ask those who have such collections on the registry listing - what is the point, please? >>



There are multiple reasons to keep one's registry hidden until one is just about done. By listing and keeping it hidden you:

have an insurance record
show the world you're working on a set so you get offered coins
drive Stewart nuts

STONE

<< <i>drive Stewart nuts >>


No, that's the only reason

tradedollarnut

There's also something mentally satisfying about entering an upgrade into the Registry. Kinda like filling a hole in a Whitman album.

Steve

Let's face it. It takes a certain kind of an individual to (1) participate in the PCGS Set Registry; (2) complete a set of coins 100% BEFORE entering ANY of the coins into the PCGS Set Registry; (3) Have the #1 set as a result of entering ALL the coins at one time; (4) determine NOT to allow fellow collectors to see the individual coins and the grades that PCGS assigned to the individual coins; (5) not get professional pictures taken of the coins so that the collector has a way to see the coins without visiting his SDB and not share those pictures with his fellow collectors.

So I say the same thing as others. Why put the coins into the PCGS Set Registry. I guess the answer is to just satisfy his own ego. JMHO. Steve

SmallEagle

Oh you can smell the envy here....

Silverstate

<< <i>#1 My A$$ .... What does this guy have that is better than mine ? And they are all Photo Sealed ? Whoop dee doo

Time for a Showdown Rick !

Tell your boy to come out of the closet.

BTW Where are his Flying Eagle Cents ?

Does he collect patterns or are they over his head ?

Stewart Blay >>



I think a showdown is coming!

ProofCents

Where can i buy tickets for the showdown. (insert popcorn icon here)

DMWJR

<< <i>Oh you can smell the envy here.... >>



I don't smell coin envy, but maybe cert envy ....

seanq

<< <i>

<< <i>As a 'newbie', I never understood the reason why some registry collections are such that one cannot even look at a listing of coins and grade.

All you are left with is a name on the listing.

Doesn't make any real impression on me - nor would I imagine it matters much to others looking at the registry listings.

I would simply ask those who have such collections on the registry listing - what is the point, please? >>



There are multiple reasons to keep one's registry hidden until one is just about done. By listing and keeping it hidden you:

have an insurance record
show the world you're working on a set so you get offered coins
drive Stewart nuts

>>




One other practical reason - it keeps people from holding a coin for ransom when they know it is the last one you need to complete your set.


Sean Reynolds

OneCent

<< <i>Maybe I am having some difficulty articulating my point.

It is without a doubt ( the numbers speak for themselves) that "Mr/Mrs Castle" has assembled (or possibly that Mr Snow has assembled for Mr/Mrs Castle) a group of coins with a higher weighted grade average than any other set. That is not in dispute.
However, Stewart Blay has for the past 23 or so years doggedly studied and made himself an undisputed expert in his field. Over those years he has attended most major shows and auctions ( I know, I was at many of them) and PERSONALLY examined thousands of coins. His collection has been built slowly and meticulously with an expert eye on the finest quality. In the end, it is his set and his set alone. A true collector's collection.

Put another way, ask any serious US small cent collector which pedigree they would rather have in their collection, Blay or any other...


Jack >>




Well said.

Coppercolor

I don't know if this board followed the very recent sale of Sunnywoods "Over the Rainbow" complete Morgan set or not. But it'sa great example of a set that did not approach the top of the Registry but will likely stand for near eternity as the highest quality or most eye appealing sets of all time. Like I understand is also the case with Stewart (even though I know littel else about him) Sunnywoods RUNNER UP set would like stroke the bajesus out of anyone else's set. Give me quality and color over grade please, it would be worth seeing pictures of both if nothing more than for the education of the collecting community.
Jeff

renomedphys

I think they should both post photos and let us all decide for ourselves!!!

EagleEye

As you all may know, I just had my 51st birthday. With this advancing age, my memory slips a bit. I recently found out that NO! I didn't place the 1861 MS-68 into the Castle collection, I recommended him not to buy it. So all this talk-talk-talk about the coin is meaningless because it isn't in there!

I find this rather funny - I hope you do too!

wondercoin

LOL. I am your age - I know exactly what you are talking about.

Wondercoin

renomedphys

That's cool! I am also your age divided by three plus the product of four and five. Also my age times two minus the product of two and three equals the numerical grade of the non-existent coin, whose date is a prime number! I know EXACTLY what you're thinking!

Steve

<< <i> I know EXACTLY what you're thinking! >>



Boy, I wish I was only 37?
Steve