Are continental dollars overated and overpriced?

bidask

There are 9 of them in the ANA Heritage Platinum auction.

MidLifeCrisis

Here's what I wrote in a recent thread about Continental Dollars:

Continental Dollars are known and desired by mainstream collectors as well as specialists. But mainstream collectors may want one because 1) it has the 1776 date; 2) it was designed by Ben Franklin; and 3) they believe it circulated in the newly independent American colonies as regular issue coinage. This third reason may be a major contributor for why the prices for these coins are so high.

Maybe I'm jaded by their price relative to their rarity and also by the pieces I usually see on the market. But, off the top of my head, here's what I think:

1. While one or two varieties may be extremely rare, I don't believe they are rare as a type. I would estimate that they are R-2 to R-3 as a type. This, to me, does not justify their price.

2. The ones I recall seeing most frequently on the market are conserved and terrible looking, usually in NCS slabs it seems.

3. The 1776 date is cool. But I don't think they ever actually circulated as legal tender - at least not much. I think that if they did, they would have taken over as the coin of choice to replace the 8 reales. I say that knowing that most people during the colonial period could barely afford low denomination copper pieces, much less something as valuable as full 8 real coins or their equivalents.

4. While their design is cool - as is the fact that they were designed by Franklin - I like the later adaptation of this design as used on the Fugios much better, especially with the "Mind Your Business" motto so prominently displayed on Fugios.

Bottom line...Continental Dollars are not super rarities and their prices seem too high (in my opinion) when compared to legitimate super rarities in the colonial series.

Aegis3

In some sense, they are the S-VDB's of the colonial world.

ColonialCoinUnion

I think it might be a case of supply and demand. Unless you know of someone who is "promoting" these?

SeattleSlammer

no

mrearlygold

<< <i>no >>



Right

AOEDAD

While one or two varieties may be extremely rare, I don't believe they are rare as a type. I would estimate that they are R-2 to R-3 as a type.

FYI - The total known for all 10 type is about 1200 or so. The most "common" types are R- 4/5.
Newman Composition Rarity
1-A.1 1-A Brass Three known Bowers total
1-A.2 1-B Brass Low R.7 Hodder estimates 10 to 12 known
1-A.2 1-B Pewter Three known Unknown to Newman
1-A.3 1-C Pewter Common Perhaps 400 to 500 exist
1-A.3 1-C Silver Two known Intermediate die stage
2-A.3 2-C Pewter Common Perhaps 300 to 400 exist
3-B 3-D Pewter Common Perhaps 300 to 400 exist
3-B 3-D Silver Two known
4-B 4-D Pewter Four known
4.1-B 5-D Pewter Three known

commoncents05

<< <i>I think it might be a case of supply and demand. >>



Bingo.

What is something worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

-Paul

Justacommeman

Make no mistake that these are rare in the grades and coins presented in the Heritage auction. Newman is a legend in the collecting community and his "stamp" on some of these these coins can not be underestimated. Par excellence.............MJ

stinkinlincoln

<<There are 9 of them in the ANA Heritage Platinum auction. >>

I agree with midlife on alot of what he said.

I think when any collection like this comes up for sale, questions like this are asked. I dont think the price is there, but they are some of the most amazing coins IMHO. I love these and would love to own one, not to mention what this man has. The collection is one word is STUNNING.

QuarterCollector

Everything that I dont own is overpriced.

Tom

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>While one or two varieties may be extremely rare, I don't believe they are rare as a type. I would estimate that they are R-2 to R-3 as a type.

FYI - The total known for all 10 type is about 1200 or so. The most "common" types are R- 4/5.
Newman Composition Rarity
1-A.1 1-A Brass Three known Bowers total
1-A.2 1-B Brass Low R.7 Hodder estimates 10 to 12 known
1-A.2 1-B Pewter Three known Unknown to Newman
1-A.3 1-C Pewter Common Perhaps 400 to 500 exist
1-A.3 1-C Silver Two known Intermediate die stage
2-A.3 2-C Pewter Common Perhaps 300 to 400 exist
3-B 3-D Pewter Common Perhaps 300 to 400 exist
3-B 3-D Silver Two known
4-B 4-D Pewter Four known
4.1-B 5-D Pewter Three known >>


AOEDAD - Thanks for the information about rarity of specific composition and die varieties. I trust that it is accurate. Where does your information come from?

In response, and to split hairs with you a bit, I found several websites that provide information about the Sheldon Rarity Scale. One listed the rarity levels in more general terms...one provided more specific information. I've copied both below:

The Sheldon Scale
R-1 Common
R-2 Not So Common
R-3 Scarce
R-4 Very Scarce (population est at 76-200)
R-5 Rare (31-75)
R-6 Very Rare (13-30)
R-7 Extremely rare (4-12)
R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1,2 or 3)

R8 = 1-3 known (estimated), "Unique or Nearly Unique"
R7 = 4-12 known, "Extremely Rare"
R6 = 13-30 known, "Very Rare"
R5 = 31-75 known, "Rare"
R4 = 76-200 known, "Very Scarce"
R3 = 201-500 known, "Scarce"
R2 = 501-1250 known, "Uncommon"
R1 = over 1251 known, "Common"

So, according to your information, 7 of the 10 varieties are extremely rare. I stand corrected. But the other 3 collectable varieties clearly fall within the R-3 range.

Regardless, my opinion hasn't changed. I still think Continental Dollars are overated and overpriced relative to other colonial rarities. But that's just my opinion.

RYK

I think they are fascinating, historic, and significant coins which, like 1792 half dismes, were probably undervalued in the marketplace for some time. More recently, interest in both have surged and, therefore, so have prices. I would love to have one, but I likely missed my opportunity when they were really cheap, say, 7-10 years ago.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>I think they are fascinating, historic, and significant coins which, like 1792 half dismes, were probably undervalued in the marketplace for some time. More recently, interest in both have surged and, therefore, so have prices. I would love to have one, but I likely missed my opportunity when they were really cheap, say, 7-10 years ago. >>



The surge in interest seems to have coincided with the publication of the "100 Greatest US Coins" book.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>I still think Continental Dollars are overated and overpriced relative to other colonial rarities. >>



This comment is telling, in that many buyers of Continental Dollars are not collectors of colonial and early American coins per se, but instead are collectors of early federal coins. In other words, Continental Dollars appeal to a broader audience than just the colonial guys - placing them in the same category as Bar Cents, Fugios and a few other issues in this regard.

If there was similarly broad demand for the "other colonial rarities" you noted, these might well sell for even more than the Continetals you believe are overvalued.

wikyva

<< <i>I think they are fascinating, historic, and significant coins which, like 1792 half dismes, were probably undervalued in the marketplace for some time. More recently, interest in both have surged and, therefore, so have prices. I would love to have one, but I likely missed my opportunity when they were really cheap, say, 7-10 years ago. >>




I agree with this ... I think they are really cool and would love to have one. They are priced high in part because many other collectors feel the same way about them.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>

<< <i>I still think Continental Dollars are overated and overpriced relative to other colonial rarities. >>



This comment is telling, in that many buyers of Continental Dollars are not collectors of colonial and early American coins per se, but instead are collectors of early federal coins. In other words, Continental Dollars appeal to a broader audience than just the colonial guys - placing them in the same category as Bar Cents, Fugios and a few other issues in this regard.

If there was similarly broad demand for the "other colonial rarities" you noted, these might well sell for even more than the Continetals you believe are overvalued. >>


Good point. Of course, I understand that the demand for Continental Dollars drives the price up.

While not a perfect direct comparison, I liked Aegis3's comparison of Continentals to 09-S VDB Lincolns. I would certainly like to own a Continental Dollar...just as I wanted to own an 09-S VDB when I was collecting Lincolns.

The OP asked for an opinion and I gave mine.

PerryHall

Is there documentation anywhere proving that these coins are dollars? I don't see the word "dollar" anywhere on the coin.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>Is there documentation anywhere proving that these coins are dollars? I don't see the word "dollar" anywhere on the coin. >>


According to the old Coinfacts website:

The true denomination is not known, although they are approximately the size of later dollars, and hence that name has stuck. Perhaps they were meant to be Pence, or something closer to a cent in circulating value when struck in tin.

AOEDAD

Hello MidLifeCrisis !

Not to split hairs ?
The Fuld Scale R-1 to R-10 is perhaps a better Rarity Scale for similar / non mint / limited production items.

Overpriced ?
The Con't Dollar along with the Brasher & Half Disme are of great historical interest .. the market / auctions will tell you the real value to collectors.

Anyway - side note:
I took a look a your collection .. you have some Great Items ! I collected similar about 25 years ago. Comments then were "WOW Overpriced" but the coin's price ratio vs. others has remained about the same over the years. Here is link to my example which I gave to my son.
take care ! .. tj

Con't Dollar

Final note:
below is excellent reference link to Colonials.

Col Ref

MidLifeCrisis

Hi AOEDAD,

Regarding the Fuld Scale and the historical significance, demand and value to collectors of the Continental Dollar, Brasher & Half Disme... you'll get no argument from me on either point. I do appreciate the spirited discussion!

Your Continental Dollar (now your son's) looks spectacular! I'd like to own a similar one someday.

AOEDAD

I like what your collecting .. and that you set a goal for yourself.

I've collected many types / sets of coins over the past 50 years .. but sold almost all of them via Heritage, etc. ( down payments for my two kids homes ). Now I collect mainly Exonumia .. many Very Rare, historic and beautiful items that still can be bought at a good price .. tj

Aegis3

<< <i>

<< <i>Is there documentation anywhere proving that these coins are dollars? I don't see the word "dollar" anywhere on the coin. >>


According to the old Coinfacts website:

The true denomination is not known, although they are approximately the size of later dollars, and hence that name has stuck. Perhaps they were meant to be Pence, or something closer to a cent in circulating value when struck in tin. >>



This is pure speculation, but I would think that if they were meant to be a penny or some other small denomination, they would have circulated much more readily, and there'd be many more in lower grades and many less in the higher (AU/MS) grades.

Sunnywood

Continental dollars, with their remarkable design bearing the names of the thriteen colonies, are an amazing piece of American history and an important artifact of the new federal republic. There will always be demand for these coins, and it is entirely justified. These cannot be compared with some regular issue coin that is a rarity by virtue of date, mintmark, condition, variety or die pairing (although the connoisseur of Continental dollars will want to collect them by variety and alloy as well). They were designed by Franklin himself, for heaven's sake!!

While the supply may be greater than some other coins of similar value, the demand is justifiedly greater as well. These coins represent a great intersection of Americana and numismatics, and they mark the origin, evolution and foundation of our unit of currency, the dollar.

Best,
Sunnywood

ziggy29

There's a difference between "overpriced" and "highly valued relative to availability." Same with the 1909-S VDB.

If you believe in the marketplace, nothing that trades fairly liquid and orderly is much overpriced or underpriced -- it should be right where supply and demand sets it.