New PCGS colored label

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 1:18AM

Recent talk on a major bourse floor is that PCGS is "thinking" about a new colored label to replace the current blue. It appears that their income stream is drying up and something needs to "happen" to get the crack-out guys to spend once again. Anybody out there hear this also or want to share thoughts?

stinkinlincoln · July 5, 2009 1:22AM

PCGS is never going to run out of ways to make money. Esp off a colored label... What bourse, what people were saying this? Major dealers, PCGS reps, collectors?

Crack out guys are having a hard time because of Cac and collectors wising up to some of what goes on in this hobby.

If PCGS is making a new colored label, Im sure there is a reason other than trying to get crackout guys paying up for submissions.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · July 5, 2009 1:29AM

The color of a label isn't going to change how crackout guys operate. They actually look at the coin.

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 1:44AM

June Long Beach and the conversation was from several dealers who submit a large number of coins. Many dealers feel that a large majority of coins currently in holders are at the "end of the line" for grade and thus the crackout folks opportunity keeps decreasing. Also there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price.

Zoins · July 5, 2009 1:46AM

<< there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

Is the thinking that a 63/64 might sticker while an outright 64 won't?

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 1:51AM

Didn't hear anything about that but think of the "additional" hype from dealers and auction companies for a coin graded 63/66 in a PCGS 63 holder. I believe we have all seen something like that.

Zoins · July 5, 2009 1:53AM

It sounds like this could be a winner for PCGS.

It could be a good time to introduce AU-60+ grades as well.

stinkinlincoln · July 5, 2009 1:58AM

<<June Long Beach and the conversation was from several dealers who submit a large number of coins. Many dealers feel that a large majority of coins currently in holders are at the "end of the line" for grade and thus the crackout folks opportunity keeps decreasing. Also there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

I seriously doubt PCGS going to an older ANACS grading where both sides are graded individually.
All that would do is add more confusion and inconsistency.Also, I dont think PCGS is worried about differences in GreySheet prices for the most part. I also dont think coins are at the end of the line for grade at all. PCGS stands to make money from consistent grading standards, not more confusion. JMO

stinkinlincoln · July 5, 2009 1:59AM

<< 63/66 in a PCGS 63 holder>>

Care to post an example of a coin in PCGS with a 63 on one side and a 66 on the other?

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 2:07AM

I believe that many collectors know that especially in the Seated series the obverse dies usually had less life than the reverse. Thus the hairlines on the obverse that pull the grade down while the reverse is much better. If I could do photos I would post several examples.

BAJJERFAN · July 5, 2009 2:26AM

<< 

<< there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

Is the thinking that a 63/64 might sticker while an outright 64 won't? >>

I'd guess that CAC would sticker each side independently.

Zoins · July 5, 2009 2:27AM

<< 

<< 

<< there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

Is the thinking that a 63/64 might sticker while an outright 64 won't? >>

I'd guess that CAC would sticker each side independently.

>>

Now that's thinking!

BAJJERFAN · July 5, 2009 2:31AM

<< 

<< there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

Is the thinking that a 63/64 might sticker while an outright 64 won't? >>

I expect that they mite sticker each side independently. Then again who would want a coin with a 62 obverse and a 66 reverse? How would it affect the Registry?

ziggy29 · July 5, 2009 2:34AM

<< I expect that they mite sticker each side independently. Then again who would want a coin with a 62 obverse and a 66 reverse? How would it affect the Registry? >>

I assume this would really complicate the pop reports. And I'd assume that a 62/66 (or a 66/62) would be a 62 for registry purposes.

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 2:35AM

Stunning set of Morgans!!!!!!!!

I'll bet you have seen cases where one side of a Morgan is far better than the other side.

ambro51 · July 5, 2009 2:35AM

Yikes....talk about increasing difficulty in creating the "price guide" 65/65 ...65/63 ...65/67

sometimes well enough just needs to be left alone.

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 2:36AM

Than makes sense!
Would you pay more for a 62/66 as opposed to a 62/62?

DennisH · July 5, 2009 2:40AM

<< Than makes sense!
Would you pay more for a 62/66 as opposed to a 62/62? >>

I would not. Mint State Morgans often have a reverse that is 2-4 points nicer than the obverse.

ambro51 · July 5, 2009 2:41AM

I wonder what it would do for my SVDB which is "really" 67/66

TorinoCobra71 · July 5, 2009 2:41AM

<< 

<< Than makes sense!
Would you pay more for a 62/66 as opposed to a 62/62? >>

I would not. Mint State Morgans often have a reverse that is 2-4 points nicer than the obverse. >>

This is VERY TRUE!

TahoeDale · July 5, 2009 2:47AM

I don't think PCGS will split the grade, but a different color label might make sense. Perhaps every 2 or 3 years, with a slightly changed appearance. Thast would help date the submission better, at least for some.

I also hear that there are other changes being made( not just considered) at PCGS.

illini420 · July 5, 2009 2:51AM

Just can't wait for all of my old blue holders (OBH) to get the respect they deserve

I don't think splitting the grade is a good idea, just too complicated for many of the reasons already stated here.

ambro51 · July 5, 2009 2:52AM

AGH

ancient green holder

PRH

prehistoric rattler holder

TomB · July 5, 2009 2:56AM

<< I believe that many collectors know that especially in the Seated series the obverse dies usually had less life than the reverse. Thus the hairlines on the obverse that pull the grade down while the reverse is much better. If I could do photos I would post several examples. >>

The statement about hairlines in the context of this post is gibberish.

notwilight · July 5, 2009 3:02AM

<< I don't think PCGS will split the grade, but a different color label might make sense. Perhaps every 2 or 3 years, with a slightly changed appearance. Thast would help date the submission better, at least for some. >>

I agree but don't see that generating more income for PCGS. If the current blue label became and "old" label, then coins that might otherwise be cracked could be left in the older holder. the exception would be if blue holders got the reputation for being undergraded but I don't see PCGS loosening up in the future to cause that. --Jerry

WTCG · July 5, 2009 3:02AM

<< June Long Beach and the conversation was from several dealers who submit a large number of coins. Many dealers feel that a large majority of coins currently in holders are at the "end of the line" for grade and thus the crackout folks opportunity keeps decreasing. Also there was talk about possibly issuing two grades, one for each side. Kinda back to the original ANACS. Thus a 63/64 would command a higher price than a 63 "greysheet" price. >>

Were these conversations from reliable sources, or was it just dealers fantasizing about what they wish PCGS would do? I haven't heard any talk about a label change or splitting grades.

Crackout dealers determine whether a coin will upgrade or not based on the look of the coin and not on the color of the label of the holder it is housed in.

LoveMyLiberty · July 5, 2009 3:22AM

<< I believe that many collectors know that especially in the Seated series the obverse dies usually had less life than the reverse. Thus the hairlines on the obverse that pull the grade down while the reverse is much better. If I could do photos I would post several examples. >>

CoinJunkie · July 5, 2009 3:32AM

<< << 63/66 in a PCGS 63 holder>>

Care to post an example of a coin in PCGS with a 63 on one side and a 66 on the other? >>

I used to own a proof Barber quarter that would have fit that description. Awesome snow white coin except for some
slide marks across the portrait. The reverse was either 66 or 67. I bought it raw for 62 money and got it holdered at 63
by PCGS. Sold it a long time ago and never took photos...

JBdimes · July 5, 2009 3:47AM

As important to the colors, is what could the background options be, eg "Doily" style is popular.

jhdfla · July 5, 2009 4:31AM

<< 

<< I believe that many collectors know that especially in the Seated series the obverse dies usually had less life than the reverse. Thus the hairlines on the obverse that pull the grade down while the reverse is much better. If I could do photos I would post several examples. >>

The statement about hairlines in the context of this post is gibberish. >>

Agreed. Marks may tend to be more obvious on the obverse due to the larger fields around Miss Liberty than on the reverse where the eagle occupies more space, but hairlines (and marks, if that's what the poster meant) are coin specific and cannot be generalized to be more prevalent on the the obverse for the seated series' as a whole.

tresgatos · July 5, 2009 4:42AM

So you're saying that hairlines have nothing to so with the condition of the dies
as they would be picked up post minting? Please note I am not the OP we just happen
to share the same kitty icon.

jhdfla · July 5, 2009 4:51AM

<< So you're saying that hairlines have nothing to so with the condition of the dies
as they would be picked up post minting? Please note I am not the OP we just happen
to share the same kitty icon. >>

I had to do a double take when I saw the icon and realised it was not you tresgatos...

Hairlines are post striking occurences, and have nothing to do with the condition of the dies, as opposed to say die polish lines which are raised, or die cracks that occur when the coin is struck.

tresgatos · July 5, 2009 5:10AM

Thanks jhdfla, that makes sense of course. If for some reason the dies were polished between minting coins
then material would be removed from the die so that when the coin was struck the metal would flow sort of upward
and be raised while a hairline that occured after minting would dig itself down into the surface. I realize that for many this is basic stuff
but I guess it's how you learn.
And it is kind of weird seeing your icon also being used by another poster.

jhdfla · July 5, 2009 5:18AM

<< Thanks jhdfla, that makes sense of course. If for some reason the dies were polished between minting coins
then material would be removed from the die so that when the coin was struck the metal would flow sort of upward
and be raised while a hairline that occured after minting would dig itself down into the surface. I realize that for many this is basic stuff
but I guess it's how you learn.
And it is kind of weird seeing your icon also being used by another poster. >>

Might be time to retire ole Hugh Laurie and pick someone(thing) new. You kind of get used to the icon as being a specific person, but once they are uploaded of course anyone can use it.

I'm hoping the poster who uses your icon will post again and clear up the confusion about what he was trying to say, I'm curious as to what he actually meant.

john

PawPaul · July 5, 2009 8:27AM

If their thinking of it , might I recommend a really neat shade of goldish apricot .

I have no doubt they sit around and brainstorm as to new ways to generate revenue ......like any other company .

And some of their ideas leak out to the public

DoubleEagle59 · July 5, 2009 8:43AM

PCGS doesn't need to change the color of their labels to generate new income.

They already have by changing their grading standards to a newer, more strict level.

Think of all the thousands of older (not first generation) PCGS slabs that dealers will be sending in for re-slabbing in the newer 'stricter' slabs and due to PCGS's grading guarantee, they have to grade these at the same grade.

Quite ingenious.

CoinJunkie · July 5, 2009 8:47AM

<< PCGS doesn't need to change the color of their labels to generate new income.

They already have by changing their grading standards to a newer, more strict level.

Think of all the thousands of older (not first generation) PCGS slabs that dealers will be sending in for re-slabbing in the newer 'stricter' slabs and due to PCGS's grading guarantee, they have to grade these at the same grade.

Quite ingenious. >>

Right, except that if there is no change to the label, one can't tell if the coin was slabbed "pre-tightening".

ctf_error_coins · July 5, 2009 8:53AM

If PCGS wants more money perhaps they Should lower there fees on some services.

I own Many PCGS Error Coins (I bought that way off of ebay) but have never paid to have any of my raw errors certified by PCGS because they charge way too much, IMO.

I will use one of the other 2 services if I EVER have the urge to certify.

I would love to use PCGS if only they would cut a deal on a large submission of errors coins from a regular folk.

Bear · July 5, 2009 9:06AM

The remaining question is what the color

will be of a new label. How about orange?

That way when we order coins, we can just say

send me half a dozen oranges.

ziggy29 · July 5, 2009 9:19AM

The best way for PCGS (and others) to adapt to today's coin market AND get more submissions is to get a more counterfeit-proof system in place for their submissions. That would mean full images of all coins, closeup and in the holder, ideally with RFID or something else that's virtually impossible (currently) for the counterfeiters to duplicate.

The only thing that's "broken" today is the increasing number of convincing counterfeits supposedly in PCGS (and other) holders. The next generation of holder needs NOT a cosmetic label change -- it needs a security upgrade. With more trust in a new generation of holders, the more people will be willing to pay on faith, and the more that will fuel submissions and resubmissions.

Dropdaflag · July 5, 2009 9:26AM

If they change the color and get tighter or stay tight as I hear they are recently, would that not make the blue holders the dogs of the PCGS pound? Would people not get a blue holder coin re-graded if they thought it was going down a point? Would the buyers assume if left in the blue holder, that the coin is over-graded? Would this cause a rash of submissions or backfire and erode confidence in PCGS plastic? Would it cause confusion and upset a lot of people along the way?

Dropdaflag · July 5, 2009 9:29AM

<< Yikes....talk about increasing difficulty in creating the "price guide" 65/65 ...65/63 ...65/67

sometimes well enough just needs to be left alone. >>

ziggy29 · July 5, 2009 9:52AM

<< Would this cause a rash of submissions or backfire and erode confidence in PCGS plastic? Would it cause confusion and upset a lot of people along the way?

>>

Precisely why I think it would need to be primarily sold as increased counterfeit protection.

Zoins · July 5, 2009 9:54AM

<< Yikes....talk about increasing difficulty in creating the "price guide" 65/65 ...65/63 ...65/67 >>

The prices within a grade already vary greatly. If you have two grades, you can just use the average

golfer72 · July 5, 2009 10:46AM

PCGS and the other TPG's missed the boat on split grades right from the get-go. Coins should always have seperate grades on both sides. No reason not to. Ironically though if they decide to start this concept they will see the floodgates open with regrades. They pretty much cant lose. Coming soon to a theater near you.

ambro51 · July 5, 2009 10:47AM

yeah.

buy

and

sell

seriously, out of all the matte proof lincolns Ive had, the obverse and reverse nearly always varied a HUGE amount. I suppose people back in the day would take them out of the tarnish proof tissue...and then just set them on top of it for decades. some look great on the front, and you can hardly make out the back at all. so then, PR65RB/62BN

LindeDad · July 5, 2009 11:04AM

If they come out with a new label it will be to combat the fake labels IMO.

ohioguy · July 5, 2009 10:07PM

Excellent opportunity to really set themselves apart from all other services.

BlindedByEgo · July 5, 2009 11:31PM

If PCGS would only switch

to a new color holder and

loosen grading up by .31634

points, we would spawn the new

age of the PCGS Old Blue Holder and

crackouts could resume in volume.

Bear · July 6, 2009 4:21AM

If they go to an orange label, instead

of crack outs, we will be able to call it

peeling the orange.

relicsncoins · July 6, 2009 12:35PM

Yes........Split grades all the way!!!!

New PCGS colored label

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