1911 Matte Proof PCGS PF65 RB - First time on market in 30 years

Numiscent · October 29, 2008 12:47PM

Hi Everyone,

First, let me say hello, as this this is my first post here. My name is Tom, and I am a Lincoln Cent nut. I deal with this one type of coin full time. I look forward to being a part of the community here.

I wanted to share a 1911 Matte Proof PCGS PF65 RB and see what you guys think. I have been focusing on matte proofs over the past two years, and just received results from PCGS on this one. It's on it's way back to me as I speak (I photographed it in advance). This one has an interesting story compared to most certified matte proofs that have passed through my hands. The collector who sold it to me owned the coin since the '70s, when he bought it raw as part of a complete set from Bowers and Merena. This is the first time it is on the market since then! I'd like to see what you guys think of it. Also, feel free to PM me if you are interested in it.

Thanks,
Tom

loro1rojo · October 29, 2008 1:02PM

Wow.. Very nice coin. Definately something I would be interested on, but as of now.. I proably couldn't afford the coin. Good luck!

BWRC · October 29, 2008 1:26PM

Nice coin Tom and welcome to the forum!

lasvegasteddy · October 29, 2008 2:25PM

welcome to tha club and sweet looking 11' matty there

MarkJude · October 30, 2008 12:10AM

Tom -

Welcome and thanks for sharing a great looking matte!

Mark

renomedphys · October 30, 2008 12:47AM

Nice woody! I look forward to seeing more of your Mattes!

Numiscent · October 30, 2008 12:49AM

Thanks guys. I was looking for a "introduce yourself" type of category on the board, but didn't see it. I hope it's not rude to introduce myself and share a coin I'm excited about all together.

Duane Blake pointed out to me over the phone that this was the first 1911 matte proof with a woodgrain that he's ever seen. I assume it was typical for them to be minted from a variety of planchet sheets even with such low mintage (forgive me if my "sheet" terminology isn't correct), but I was still wondering what others think of this observation. Is this unusual for a 1911? Does it even matter one way or another to you if it were?

Another thing that stands out is the very glossy surfaces. It doesn't have a subdued "dusty" look that many seem to have, yet it has still toned like most. I love it!

lasvegasteddy · October 30, 2008 1:05AM

it is a lil strange that woody planchets would of been used to show off the mint's pride

but it was just 1 or 2 months ago another 1911 woody appeared...it was more pronounced too and was sold under ms pretense

these 2 with yours makes 3 woodys for 1911...a lil feast for duane's eye's with 3 in one thread herein...but i'm sure not many exsist

this was the ebay and sold raw as a ms 1 or 2 months ago.

renomedphys · October 30, 2008 1:38AM

LVT, your top coin is a nice EDS without any of the rim die gouges and you can make out the raised curl of metal trailing off of the 9 in the date. Great Picture!

lasvegasteddy · October 30, 2008 1:43AM

not my coins there matt....as i need to buy another 11' now....darn 1964 sms dime ate my 11' + sum

no snibblin out of me with a 1964 sms anything

ChrisRx · October 30, 2008 1:52AM

lasvegasteddy · October 30, 2008 2:07AM

tom,

just out of curiosity what's the story on your 12' as you've sent this 11' in?

did it bag?did it bag once or a couple tries?

please don't take this wrong that i ask...it's just i'm curious as a red 12' is quite a matty and sometimes pcgs bag's for color then next time in it's accepted and it is a pretty 12' you have there

Numiscent · October 30, 2008 4:07AM

Hi Teddy,

The 1912 is most likely dipped and retoned to a warmer orange, aka AT, aka recolored, aka not cleaned but not original red. I bought it raw, felt that this was the case and noted it when I put it up on my website. Then Duane contacted me very optimistic about the coin (it can't hurt to hope!), and he started to get me wondering "what if?" I still didn't want to submit it for grading though. For some reason I can't stand the notion that if PCGS didn't slab it for whatever reason then there still is a chance they might the next try. Because of that, if they BB'd it I still wouldn't feel like I got my real answer once and for all. So I did something I felt more comfortable with. I sent it to Brian Wagner for him to look at. He confirmed my concerns, telling me he thought it had been dipped and retoned, although not abrasively cleaned, and that it could very unlikely end up in a PCGS slab. He said he has seen one or maybe a few in slabs that looked to be recolored like this, but it's unlikely that it could happen. We talked briefly about the notion of sending it to another service than trying to have it crossed, but he still thought it wouldn't be worth it.

So there it lies, a genuine matte proof, but raw, pretty nice looking to be honest. It is not pale in color, and has a nice light toning on the high points of Lincolns bust that really give it a naturally aged look, as opposed to one that screams dipped. One cool thing about a raw matte proof is getting to feel the sharpness of the edges when transferring it to and from a holder. It really teaches one how to "feel" the difference.

I am strange when it comes to grading services, in that I hate the feeling of things not working out as you hoped (yeah, who doesn't) to the point where it makes me just enjoy raw coins all that much more. Maybe that will change, I don't know.

This 1911 was different the the regard that I knew it had to be a 65 or possibly a 66, and that the matte proof collectors seem to really want these in slabs. So I just bit the bullet and sent it in. I'm surprised no one wants it so far.

Tom

lasvegasteddy · October 30, 2008 4:24AM

hey tom,

sincere thanks for the reply

teddy

renomedphys · October 30, 2008 4:33AM

It's really a very pretty coin, but without some sort of O.M.G. toning, the money's a little on the steep side. I don't think TOO high, but definitely enough to give a prospective buyer some pause.

Numiscent · October 30, 2008 5:00AM

Matt,

Since I haven't mentioned a price, I assume that you are referring to the eBay listing I just created for the coin at $4200. I'd say that price is wishful thinking. I figured it based on the highest I can imagine anyone wanting to pay for it without it collecting dust for too long, plus a cushion for eBay and Paypal fees. I don't expect that much for it. I thought I'd just have it sitting there while I see if anyone here would like it, and if someone were to take it on eBay, then I guess I'd splurge with the 22 oz beer instead of the pint next time my wife and I go out. I'm considering taking it down from eBay to avoid confusion about that being the price I "need" for it.

While I think the glossy surfaces and radiant glow it has (not muted or "dusty" like some seem to get) dictate a solid coin for the grade, I understand it's not out of this world rainbow toning either that might demand double the PCGS list price. Seriously, don't be intimidated by that eBay price, and don't be afraid to PM me if anyone here could use this for their set. I want it to find a good home where it will fit in and be appreciated.

HdHunter · October 30, 2008 8:11AM

Tom & Duane:
I have noticed that "wood grain" effect on my 1911 PR66RD also:

Regards,
Jonathan

renomedphys · October 30, 2008 8:11AM

Thanks for the reply.

For PMs to work, you must go into your Profile, and click the "Allow PMs" radio button.

Cheers!

WaterSport · October 30, 2008 8:56AM

My 09,13 and 15 have some wood grain effect..

WS

Numiscent · October 30, 2008 9:15AM

<< <i>Thanks for the reply.

For PMs to work, you must go into your Profile, and click the "Allow PMs" radio button.

Cheers! >>

Whoa, thanks for the heads up, Matt! I made the fix.

Duane · October 30, 2008 12:49PM

Tom-

Welcome to the registry message board! I'm glad to se you are being well-received by the matte specialists. Good stuff, huh?

I'm learning something new every day myself, and that is part of what makes MPLs so much fun - each one is unique.

In terms of pricing, I'm sure you'll work out a fair price with someone that benefits both.

But the important thing is that you are now coming on the boards with certified coins. That takes all the guess work out of what is confusing enough to begin with.

Anyway, nice coin, and good to see you here.

Duane

cohodk · October 31, 2008 12:11AM

<< <i>Thanks guys. I was looking for a "introduce yourself" type of category on the board, but didn't see it. I hope it's not rude to introduce myself and share a coin I'm excited about all together.

Duane Blake pointed out to me over the phone that this was the first 1911 matte proof with a woodgrain that he's ever seen. I assume it was typical for them to be minted from a variety of planchet sheets even with such low mintage (forgive me if my "sheet" terminology isn't correct), but I was still wondering what others think of this observation. Is this unusual for a 1911? Does it even matter one way or another to you if it were?

Another thing that stands out is the very glossy surfaces. It doesn't have a subdued "dusty" look that many seem to have, yet it has still toned like most. I love it! >>

Actually I have seen many woodgrained 1911's and would say that it is probably the most common date to find woodgrained.

Duane · November 3, 2008 9:23AM

Live and learn- Up until this coin (a first for me, as mentioned), I'd seen 'wood-toned' 1909s and 1915s.

Thanks, Dave.

Sincerely,

Duane

Gobrechts99Grapevine · November 3, 2008 3:15PM

I've noticed a slight "wood grain" effect on the reverse of my 1916 PR66BN.

renomedphys · November 4, 2008 1:49AM

I suppose I could toss in my 66BN 1914 as well:

ChrisRx · November 4, 2008 1:51AM

1911 Matte Proof PCGS PF65 RB - First time on market in 30 years

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