The Blake Matte Proof Lincoln Diagnostic Collection -Stay or go???

Grasshopper

Dear all:

Please read the following string to me and Brian Wagner from our good friend Jonathan, in which he has expressed his concerns as a friend about me starting a new registry set using some coins from an old set. I would appreciate it if the group would express their collective opinion and let me know if you feel that I am doing anything inappropriate, and I will abide and adjust to the group's decision, if neccesary. I will also send to BJ for a decision. I have always strived to be an ethical person and collector, and I know the same is true of Brian Wagner, so I would like to handle this issue above-board, and one way or another, make a decision and move on.

Thank you,

Duane Blake

****************************************

Jonathan-

Thanks for your opinion. I do understand. No one has said anything to me personally, but as Brian and I are about the most ethical guys you know, here is what I would like to do, so their is no confusion: I have 5 coins in my new collection:

1909VDB (From my old set)
1909 (A brand new coin)
1912 (From my old set)
1915 (A brand new coin)
1916 (From my old set)

2 new coins out of the 5 total = 40% new coins and 60% old coins. You are suggesting that 33% should be the number. Where is the line?

While I don't know, I suggest we just be open and let the registry group and PCGS management decide. So what I will do is this: I will send this string to our registry members and BJ Searls at PCGS, and ask the entire group to make the rule on the issue, and set the record straight. Whatever the group decides on, I will abide. I will take the set down if the group wishes. If they are not bothered, they can tell me, and then everybody is on the same page. That seems to me like the fairest and most democratic and non-hiding way to handle. I will do so ASAP.

Thanks again, Jonathan, for bringing this to my and Brian's attention.

Brian-I guess that you had better take down the coins we have decided not to sell, so even the appearance of impropriety will be avoided.

Regards,
Duane


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From: Jonathan Watkins [mailto:jonwat@optonline.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 9:12 PM
To: 'Duane Blake'
Cc: 'Brian Wagner'; 'Jonathan Watkins'
Subject: New Blake PCGS Registry Set
Importance: High


Duane:

I saw your inquiry on the message board about reusing coin (1909 VDB Proof) from previously retired set in new registry set, and agree with those members of the MPL fraternity like Bob and Steve, who suggested that you could certainly do this. I think however, their intent was more toward one coin, then starting a new Registry set with four coins from previously retired collection. While it may be “legal” to do so, I don’t think it was ever the intent for the Registry to be made up of multiples of key coins used over and over again to create new registry sets. Compounding the situation is the fact that two of the coins are listed as for sale on Brian’s site, which at the very least, shows intent to sell, and thus should have been removed from the new registry collection. If one follows your logic, Stewart Blay or Doug could retire a set, swap one coin, open another one and keep retiring so only their sets would ever be in the “all time finest registry set”. Can you see Stewart or Doug or Pete Miller doing this? Personally I would never do it. Nothing wrong with using one coin as a cornerstone for new collection, but to do it the way you have it now will create the wrong perception about you to the entire community. Even if this is “technically within the PCGS Registry guidelines”, I don’t think it is the right thing to do. It’s almost as if you are using a loophole in the system for your advantage. Duane, I know you have been taking a lot of heat from some members and I think you are asking for a lot of criticism once it dawns on other members what has occurred. Frankly, I would suggest to PCGS that a maximum percentage from one registry set could ever be used by the owner again in a new registry set. I don’t have enough experience in the arena to know for certain, but think the maximum should be no more than 33% of coins from previous registry set…..

Brian, I think you are going to be getting bad press on this as well. I personally feel coins being offered for sale should be removed from registry sets. Whenever we do a deal, the first thing I do is remove my old coin from the registry.

Just my opinion, your friend!



Jonathan Watkins

jonwat@optonline.net

Steve

I'm going to respond now without voting yet. I agree with a lot of what Jonathan has said. I also understand Duane's desire to "honor" his father with the retired set and at the same time be able to continue his collection. My understanding from Duane is that he needed to recoup some of the money he spent on his retired set. I can understand that too. I DO have a problem with Duane including coins in his new set at the same time he is attempting to sell those coins. THAT, I think, is not the right thing to do.

As a collector who prides myself on owning the coins I have rather than just completing a set and then selling the collection, it did initially bother me when Duane almost immediately sold off some of his original collection. But I accepted his reasons. I KNOW Duane wants to do the right thing here and I have a strong feeling that he will.
Steve

Grasshopper

Understood. I have just instructed Brian Wagner to take down the 1912 and 1916. They are no longer for sale on his site. I hope that clarifies that aspect of the issue.

Duane

illini420

First, I'm don't own any MPLs (but, I'd love to someday!!!) and I don't have any registry sets (yet). I can totally appreciate Jonathan's points on this matter though and his examples of what could happen (although extreme examples) illustrate the problem very well. I can also understand Duane not wanting to be required different examples of the coins if he already owns examples that he wants to retain in his set, that would be silly to rebuy others just for that reason alone.


I really don't care about having coins for sale listed in the registry. As long as Duane still owns them, they are his and part of his collection. Arguably all of my coins are for sale right now (for the right price )


I voted undecided since I'm not a player in the registry game. Never really did like having retired sets listed in the registry anyways. I always thought they belonged in a seperate part of the site (to display past collections, not current collections). Taken to its extreme, some day all of the retired sets at the top could look the same with the same exact coins owned by different individuals at different times. I like the way the registry is across the street, where only currently owned coins are featured.

lasvegasteddy

well issue at hand brings a deeper view of set registry to me.

i am one who doesn't take set registry beyond the community sharing and organizational aspects it contains.

i easily see the competitive aspect too and know pcgs makes claim it has root concept to be used in competition for position goals.

although i've acquired an emotional closeness to you duane (luv ya like a brother) and i call you a dear friend.

with this issue i find i must place my "self" in check here and current unselfish thing to do is put my "self" aside here.

if just one member even feels this destroys any aspect of set registry then i must side with them against my own wishes.

a blind poll...registry set moderator's call or both does not truly matter as there is some type of resolve that could be found.

provided we "all" do it as a team here for we are team players here.

there is something i'm sure which can make everyone happy in the end so long as we don't jump quick into first resolve.

time for us to toss around some resolves we all can agree upon which in turn will only enhance set registry higher still

i need time to conceive possible resolutions and hopefully we as i have time to do this too

DMWJR

Duane, I don't think of it as an "ethical" question. However, I think it is going to be hard for your to do it with coins moving out of the collection. The Registry Set is probably not the best place to accomplish what you are trying to do. Why not consider updating the threads that have already been created, or start a new thread? Remember recently when Roger listed a set and lifted pictures of other coins? That didn't go over too well. Although what you are doing is somewhat different, I would hate to see you go down that road.

Grasshopper

Doug-

Thanks. But just to clarify what is a clear misunderstanding, my coins are NOT moving out of the collection. Brian has taken them down from his site, and they are not for sale. Logistically, we each are busy people, have just been working hard, and going in differant directions. People have been contacting me and asking me to sell various bigger coins, especially the VDB, the '12, and the '15, and I have declined in each instance. End of argument. As you point out, I will not go down that road (I am the guy who once defended the registry against someone who really WAS doing something wrong!)

Having said that, I'm very satisfyed that I have a) achieved my true goal with the first dedication collection, and 2) have given more to the numismatic community then I've taken. So whether I am compelled to pull this particular set by PCGS (for what reason, I have no idea, as I truly do not think that I am breaking any rules), or I pull the set on my own volition, or just repopulate it with entirely new coins, I will do it for the right reasons. But one thing is clear to me: I am spending too much time defending myself for having done nothing wrong. (At least I beleive that to be true). I have a new collection with 5 coins. 2 are new, and 3 are retired. Obviously, the next 4 will be new. So I will have another complete set of 9 coins (probably in the next month or so) where 3 were used in another collection that I retired. I honestly do not know the rules, but have written to BJ and asked. I did not think there is a problem, but I have gone right to the top to find out. When Jonathan said that the 1912 and 1916 coins were listed for sale, I immedietly called Brian and asked him to take them down. Brian, of course, immedietely obliged. Brian told me that the 1909VDB was not even up for sale on his site, so I don't understand that one at all. I just purchased the 1915 from Legend, and put it on the set. I actually own 3 1909s, and used the one in the new set that was never in my first set 9but it is beautiful, to my eye - I could have just as easily used the 1909 Red, but think the RB is prettier! I kept the VDB in the set, because the darn things are so hard to find, and expensive, but you can bet I'm looking for more.

I have a safety deposit box full of MPLs and I love them. I have no real need to prove anything, but will continue to contribute to numismatics in ways that I feel are right, as have always done. As I just wrote to a friend: I'm going to keep supporting the hobby that I love, with or without a set on the regisrty : ) But in truth, I do enjoy the commaradare and friendships of the registry, so I would like to stay and continue building friendships and having fun. Maybe I'll jump in with the "big boys" and start a 'red' set. Hey, I have a couple to start with, and they have never been in my sets before, as I have been a RB and BN guy!

Anyway, thanks for your advice, Doug, I do respect it.

Sincerely,

Duane

renomedphys

Duane,

I whole-heartedly feel that you should continue your quest to assemble this new diagnostic MPL set. That said:

I think there is some merit to the concerns expressed. Part of the difficulty of assembling a complete set is the time and energy it takes to both find and purchase the difficult coins required. While I can understand the rationale of using previously owned coins to begin a new set, even beginning with an 800-pound gorilla coin like the VDB definitely gives you a leg up on the competition, and especially those trying to get their sets high up on the all-time ranking list. That said, there are some coins I could nevr really bring myself to part with, and I know that should the day come to sell my set, some will remain behind to form a cornerstone for a new set. The only thing I would try to be sure of is that the coins I saved did not form too large a basis in the new set. Let me put it this way: of the 150 odd coins in my MS set, there are only about five coins that I will likely never sell except under "special" circumstances, like a trade for an equally lustworthy coin. The difficulty of assembling a new set minus those five coins would be essentially on-par with the difficulty of starting from scratch, and during the process, I may find others that are worthy enough to "let" me sell one or two of the big five. By the end, any similarities to the old set would be indistinguishable. On the other hand, for the Mattes, with only nine coins required, saving behind the VDB and the '16 and the '12... well, that's the whole set right there pretty much.

Why not hold back your beloved coins from the new registry set? Look for some new ones. You don't have to actually register the old coins to include them in your personal set, but when the oppoetunity comes to purchase a MORE APPEALING duplicate for your NEW set, the capital opportunity will at least be there, and you could then move laterally or up to the new coin by selling your old ones, and register the new coin knowing that you have not violated any unspoken or unwritten law. Surely there are others out there that will give you a similar level of enjoyment.

One option you could persue would be to simply for posterity's sake build a showcase of all your coins, old and new. That way, the whole set is there for all to enjoy, duplicates and all, and nobody feels cheated out of their chance to crack the top twenty all-time list.

JMHO,

-Matt

Gobrechts99Grapevine

Duane, I don't think of it as an "ethical" question ... However ... The Registry Set is probably not the best place to accomplish what you are trying to do. Why not consider updating the threads that have already been created, or start a new thread?

I agree with Doug that I don't think of this as an "ethical" question, and I believe Duane when he says that he doesn't feel that he has done anything wrong. The fact that Duane has voluntarily taken the initiative to put this out for debate AND up for a vote proves to me that he is an ethical person who cares deeply about doing the right thing.

I think Doug's point is a good one. The Set Registry may or may not be the best place to accomplish what Duane is trying to do, and Doug has suggested a very reasonable alternative path Duane could take. However, it is obvious to me that Duane really enjoys interacting with the registry community.

As an alternative, I would point out to Duane that you DID accomplish exactly what you set out to accomplish, and even if you DO delete the set from the All-Time Finest list, the fact remains that you fully accomplished everything you set out to do. You don’t HAVE to leave your retired set up in the retired sets. If you should choose to delete it that wouldn't diminish your accomplishment in any way. The memory of the William Blake Memorial Eye Appeal and Pedigree Collection will live on regardless, just as the memories of your father will continue to live on.

Grasshopper

To all: My very good friend, and fellow attorney Richard Shapiro (and a gentleman not as lazy as me), was kind enough to send the registry rules to me. I have read them, and considered his commentary, as I think it is very important, and shows a real friend… (In fact, I feel that way about all who have responded).

So the decision is an easy one for me: I will contact BJ Monday morning and have my Blake Dedication set taken off the ALL Time Finest, and continue to collect, as I enjoy doing. Richard is right on target, and as I had mentioned earlier, I have honored my father, and accomplished my initial collecting goal, and I do not need any “All Time Set” status to tell me that! Truthfully, I will now build a wonderful second set and dedicate it to my mother, wife, or son!! But I promise it will be a winner.

And Rich, if you ever want to sell these VDBs, give me a call, will ya? : )

So I guess the case is closed. BJ, you can thank Richard for the homework!

Yours in collecting,

Duane Blake

HdHunter

Duane:
First, I never intended my email to be public and turned into a circus event. It was intended to be nothing more than a private communication from me to you and Brian expressing my concerns which everyone now knows. I would appreciate in the future that you obtain my prior approval before posting any of my communications. I sent you a note last night approving releasing my email because it was after the fact. I also apologize to Brian for dragging him into this.
I disagree with Richard’s suggestion that you remove your retied set. Aside from a “permanent reminder” of the honor you have bestowed to your father; it is the basis that all future “toned MPL” sets can be used for comparison and thus, of historical significance. Yes I agree with others who recognize your passion for this field and value your contributions to the group. I personally believe you have singlehandedly done more than anyone except Stewart Blay and Brian Wagner to promote the MPL category and you should be commended for your efforts.
So I strongly urge that you retain the retired set, move forward in assembling a new, be it RED, or diagnostic marvels, MPL collection. I still feel one should not populate a new collection with multiple coins from a retired collection, but this is not life and death, and was never intended as an expression of your lack of ethical behavior. I don’t think anyone here has that thought of you!

Jonathan Watkins

Grasshopper

Jonathan-

Thanks for the note. I did not mean to hurt you in any way with the post. I just got tired of hearing over and over about the issue, and figured it was best to let the registry group decide. So I posted a survey, with background (ironically, the vote looks split or people are not sure what they think. I'm sure 1 of the "NOs" is from you, and another from an unidentified source whom I thrashed real good some time ago, and is still licking his wounds : ) So maybe I have the "popular vote" but it really does not matter. Right is right, and wrong is wrong, whether a person is a genuine cheat or not. I should have cut your name out, but obviously, you felt very strong about what I was doing, or you would not have felt the need to keep at it all week. So there is really no big deal to take responsibility for your thinking (after all, it is your thinking!). Believe me, Jonathan, I appreciate your comments about my contribution to the field on the one hand, and your honest belief that i have committed a foul, on the other. My contribution to the field is a legacy I do feel good about. And as far as you and me: I have helped you in the past with your collection, and given you credit when you have helped me. That will not change. And as far as Brian goes, he is not dragged into anything - he has always done the right thing, and still does. This comes down to you, and how strongly you feel that I have done something wrong, and me, and my obliviousness (born from a real thinking that I had done the right thing - I never tried to hide anything, or sneak anything in under the noses of anybody, even up until right now).

My final thinking is this (after having a night to think, and listening to a group of friends). I built a collection in honor of my father. Then I used a few meaningful coins (including an Eliasberg 1912 and 1909 VDB MPL) to anchor a second set. After legally, according to the rules, retiring the first set, I decided not to sell the coins (especially the VDB, as it cost me a great deal of money and time to acquire), and I took them down as coins that were not for sale. No one (accept you) had said anything to me about anything that I was doing being wrong. I thought that I was doing the right thing. In fact, I had been, and still am considering donating the 1912 to the Smithsonian in my father's name.

I am no cheat or hypocrite, so now that the issue has been raised (whether it was raised in public or private really makes no difference) I am left with a few reasonable choices, after now considering the actual letter of the rules [regardless of the spirit, which some people seem to be considering, based on the votes, although obviously, many are ambivalant as they know me and my intentions, and don't want to put the sword in - in short, they care] (One top of this, I have been helped in my thinking by a few caring friends): So my choices are:

1) Erase my father's set from the all time finest and continue building the present or another great set (Richard's suggestion; Richard is correct, I did complete my goal, honored my father, and I do not need a place on some mythical ATF list to make it real - it IS real (That is called wisdom);

2) Keep my fathers set on the all time finest and stop building the present set, and start another wonderful set (Your suggestion - your suggestion is good, but you will find in reality that a 1909VDB is difficult to find, and very expensive to acquire when you do find it - I wish you luck when you find yours, and sit down and write THAT check - then you will know what I know. And what Richard, and Stewart, and Doug know, along with anybody else who has actually DONE it (That is called experience; I wish you true luck in your search for your experience);

3) Leave my father's set intact, stop building the present set and go on to another series (Stewart Blay's thinking - BTW, Stewart, you DO crack me up! Stewart's advice, as always, is practical, funny, and real (That is called smart);

4) Keep my fathers set on the all time finest (not as a reminder to me, but as an honor to HIM), have a great life, build a coin collection that I enjoy privately, and not waste time in a forum were I give so much and receive such tripe in return (My thinking. I like my thinking...... That is called "trusting one's judgment - and thank you, Kevin Flynn, for the reminder).

After a night of sleep, which I needed, I have decided to go with honoring my father (keeping him on the ALL Time Finest Set list) and taking advice from numbers 1, 3 and 4). My father's set will stay in the ATF sets, and will always be there (for his and my family's memory, not mine - RS; I'm sure that you understand the meaning and why I've changed my mind), and I'm going to move ahead and quietly trust my judgment and collect some wonderul coins! (maybe MPL, maybe not). Have a great Sunday. The present set will be removed as soon as I can figure out how to do it, and then I'll figure out how to build another collection that will make my friends, and me, smile. Maybe I'll post all my coins, in full view and high resolution, with diagnostics and arrows, on my own web site. Now there's an idea! (Matt-what do you think of that?)

One thing is for sure. I have a safety deposit box with some nice coins inside, and intend to keep filling it up!

Sincere regards,

Duane Blake

speety

I would leave your retired set up and continue building your current set using some (3?) of the coins from the old set. However, once that set is complete and retired, only allow one of the sets to remain in the all-time finst retired category. As long as the same coin is not used by you twice in the same category (retired/current) and the sets in both categories are not identicle in coins they contain, I see no problem with recycling some of the coins into your new set.

Gobrechts99Grapevine

I disagree with Richard’s suggestion that you remove your retired set. AND also 1) Erase my father's set from the all time finest and continue building the present or another great set (Richard's suggestion ...

I don't mean to quibble but I disagree with BOTH Jonathan and Duane. I know what I wrote and I have now read it and re-read it. I was very careful NOT to recommend that Duane do anything. Richard (that's me) did NOT suggest what he thought Duane should do. Rather, I was very careful NOT to tell Duane what I thought he should do. I pointed out an alternative way of looking at the situation, and I said to Duane, If YOU should choose to delete it (emphasis added).

As far as I'm concerned it's Duane's problem. If I had wanted to suggest what Duane should do I would have clearly stated, "I suggest that Duane do xyz or such and such." What I can say with certainty is that I don't know what I would do if I were in Duane's shoes and I am very glad that I don't HAVE to know. I haven't come to a conclusion about what I think Duane should do.

Grasshopper

Thanks Speety-

I decided to take my second set down as I do not want any 'taint', however misguided, associated with my name (I left my dedication set to my father up in the All Time Finest, were he and it belong). What could be cooler?

I do appreciate your advice, but don't have the time or inclination to engage in this kind of pettiness over coins that I actually own. The rules are the rules - who am I to argue? I will still contribute to the numismatic community and the friends that I have made though the registry as I always have, but need a break after this debacle in order to re-group and re-think my collecting priorities.

On a last note, let me show you a cool photo of the last MPL coin that I had added to the new collection, which I was able to snag directly from Legend Numismatics. It is only the fourth red MPL I have ever owned, and the first I was able to entirely find and purchase on my own, so it has a lot of meaning to me (my representative, Brian Wagner, was very proud of me for being able to "get there first"... I had never gotten to a coin before Brian, so we had a good chuckle. Cool Brian, huh?) The picture is a little lacking, but I'm having a friend re-photograph. Hopefully, many more of these little red apples will be coming....... : )

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Duane Blake

pennyannie

Grasshopper- I would leave the retired set in the standings as a honor to your father. Build a new set with 3 of the old coins and continue on. If you did not own a 09 VDB there would be no issue.

As far as emails go? Do not send them if you worry about the content being used at a latter date.

Grasshopper

Pennyannie - How right you are. So I made a decision. I am walking away honoring my father and with MY dignity intact. Oh, and a 1909VDB in my wallet for the heck of it.

And if the mood strikes me, I'll go buy another another one : ) I've earned the right. If that bothers *AHEM* some people, they ought to go get one for themselves. All you have to do is find one and write a check......

So I'm done explaining myself....

Richard, if I miscontrued your meaning, I am sorry. Not my intent, as I'm sure you know me and realize.

Blake Out.....

BECOKA

Personally I like the idea of removing the old set if a good number will be used in the new set.

Either way it does not mean a whole lot to me as long as you own all the coins going into the current set.