Whatever Happened To Cards??
kylehess10
Posts: 351
Seriously what ever happened to cards?? It's like they're no longer wanted and they just sell for so cheap now. I remember.........
........and many many more. So what ever happened to cards?? At this rate, they will just be no longer collected in the future. The game used/autograph industry has gone out of control and all cards are being over-produced and too many one-of-a-kind pieces of game used memorabilia are being cut up when really they should be in the hall of fame. They are all worthless to me now. What are you're opinions?
- When autographs were never on stickers
- When the value of game used cards never went under $8
- When a patch card was never questioned whether or not is was fake
- When $3 a pack seemed expensive
- When the value of a star player game used card was like $20-$30
- When a card numbered to 25 seemed rare
- When a 1/1 was ACTUALLY a 1/1, not 100 different variations
- When you actually got excited when pulling a game used/autographed card, no matter who the player was
- When patch cards were the most wanted kind of game used card
........and many many more. So what ever happened to cards?? At this rate, they will just be no longer collected in the future. The game used/autograph industry has gone out of control and all cards are being over-produced and too many one-of-a-kind pieces of game used memorabilia are being cut up when really they should be in the hall of fame. They are all worthless to me now. What are you're opinions?
0
Comments
This is why I quit collecting in 1992. I just started back last year.
The only thing I have bought since 1992, other than vintage is 2 boxes of 2006 bb Heritage and 1 pack of fb Turkey Red.
To hell with the new stuff.
Vintage card collecting is where the key investments are.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You must mean modern cards, simply overproduced. Vintage prewar gets stronger every month. >>
Yes, I am talking about modern cards. Vintage cards seem to never decline in value, which is something that is actually worth collecting
<< <i>The whole "game used" and "auto insert" racket has turned modern card collecting into little more than scratch off lottery tickets.
>>
EXACTLY! I remember awhile back, I was next to someone who was opening a $120 dollar box of Hidden Treasures. He pulled an Andruw Jones jersey card which was worth like $20. Just a waste of money
Looking back now, 20+ years later, neither was what it was imagined to be. The "hobby" changed to a "business" -- much like major league baseball did in terms of free agency. Maybe it was inevitable, but it doesn't matter much now. Starting in the late 1990's, things started changing again. Stores started closing down. Investors started getting out. Shows became fewer and fewer. The "hobby" part of cards made a resurgence. No, its not what it was before 1980, and it never will be. But at least it has returned to more of a "hobby" than a "business." And as long as major league baseball remains popular, so will collecting cards of its players, past and present.
Scott
Scott eloquently summed up what’s been going on in the hobby with respect to new cards.
Now, I would like to add – that GU cards have become too commonplace and thus rendered irrelevant to the products.
With respect to price of packs - and contrary to a lot of disinformation - there has always been affordable packs in tandem with the luxury packs you've alluded to.
The excitement factor you talk about is more difficult to get a handle on - inserts are the norm - so how to hold interest? That will remain to be seen.
On the value? That's the problem IMO - card in one hand - Beckett in the other - cards were meant to be looked at - played with - flipped - traded - even mutilated on someone's bike spokes - not priced out. Now that's old school talk - I know.
On the hobby with respect to sports cards – Things couldn’t be better!!!
To preface – in baseball the number of licenses was reduced from three to two and the number of sets from 80-plus in 2005 to 40 in 2006.
The stats:
28% of boys 8 – 11 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. 9% in 2005.
23% of boys 12 – 15 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. just 8% in 2005.
Advertising and hobby store promotions has helped to give a long needed shot in the arm to the sports card industry.
Last – Topps announced last week that domestic sports card sales increased 11% for the 3rd quarter of the company’s 2007 fiscal year (ended Nov29) – marking the 5th consecutive quarter the company has recorded an increase in sports card sales.
This meant that sports card sales for the first nine months of the fiscal year are now 40% higher than for the same period of fiscal 2006.
mike
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I am not feeling the "more" part of it.
The pump and dump philosophy is as much alive in the card arena
today as at anytime I can remember; other than, maybe, 1991-94.
I am not saying that "none of it is worth anything," I am saying
that the true value of MANY items has been distorted upward
because of sundry elements of marketing; and, because of other
extrinsic economic factors.
Cards were always about money. Fifty-years ago, they were just
about smaller money; can I find enough pop-bottles to get enough
change to buy some wax packs? Today, I ask can I buy an item,
enjoy it for a while, and turn it for a profit to buy some more iems
that will repeat the cycle.
It is a "hobby," but it is also BIG business. I do not have a problem
with that. Mostly on account of it is not something I can change.
storm
28% of boys 8 – 11 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. 9% in 2005.
23% of boys 12 – 15 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. just 8% in 2005.
/////////////////////////////////////
That is good news, and shows a rebuilding of the kind of base that
will be required to sustain the thing decades out.
OTOH, I would like to see some stats from 1955 to 1960. My numbers
are based on recollection, but in those years I would bet that between
age 7 and 12, way more than 85% of boys had at least some part in
the baseball-card hobby. About 100% of the ones I knew, did.
<< <i>The stats:
28% of boys 8 – 11 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. 9% in 2005.
23% of boys 12 – 15 collected sports cards in 2006 vs. just 8% in 2005.
/////////////////////////////////////
That is good news, and shows a rebuilding of the kind of base that
will be required to sustain the thing decades out.
OTOH, I would like to see some stats from 1955 to 1960. My numbers
are based on recollection, but in those years I would bet that between
age 7 and 12, way more than 85% of boys had at least some part in
the baseball-card hobby. About 100% of the ones I knew, did. >>
Stats wouldnt be near the same. Kids are so much into their video games and they arent at all cheap like Atari was!
Also, how many kids can afford packs of baseball cards at today's prices?
Collecting cards for a good share of todays youth rides on the same road as spontaneously putting together a ball game with the other neighborhood kids. It just isnt happening nearly as much...not at all nearly.
New stuff is too dang expensive and I agree with what someone posted earlier when they compared it to lottery tickets.
1/1 OVERPRODUCED, modern collectors are angry that every single set 100 1/1s come out... This is why I like BCDP, yes there are press plates(4 of em per player that are 1/1 and also a superfractor 1/1, but thats it)
Stickers- HOBBY's WORST part for modern cards. I HATE STICKERS, again why I like exquisite and BCDP on card autos are so much better. In fact i recently sold a sticker auto card just because it was a sticker... Would've kept it if on card
#2/5
Game used- Overproduce and most aren't game used, most are game worn, I never buy them and give them away to my children customers(note IM only 19 but still give back to the younger children at shows, they love them and the smile is enough for me)
Pack price- Not gonna lie, its getting extreme, But I don't mind it...
Patch Cards- Still a very wanted card, Some patch cards are so wanted they sell higher than players autographs...
When a auto hit/gu hit mattered- I agree sometimes i get disappointed when i get a player I've never heard of or don't like, but That goes hand in hand with the price you pay... But I also know wax is a gamble and not a guarntee of anything...
Sorry for the long read just my 2cents.
<< <i>I remember how mad i got when Topps went from 15 cents to 20 cents a pack.
New stuff is too dang expensive and I agree with what someone posted earlier when they compared it to lottery tickets. >>
I don't know that it's all that much more expensive. When I was 14 or 15 I worked at Pizza Hut for $3.35 an hour (this was in '87), and I blew just about every paycheck on packs of '87 Fleer and Donruss at $1 a pop at my local hobby shop. After taxes that works to about 2 1/2 packs for every hour worked. If a kids making $7 an hour now, and buying $3 packs of cards, then the numbers are at least close.
Contrary to statements about cost of packs, sales are way up.
Kids are coming back - things are looking up.
This is important to the hobby - these kids are our future. They will be the buyers of your stuff on ebay.
I would say...
celebrate the improved climate
write the card companies with your observations - I have.
and keep posting your impression - they're valuable and ya never know - maybe they're watching?
Was the Indy game great or what?!!!!
mike
My main gripe is that there are still too many sets, and that completing a set is a pain in the butt. First off, collation is horrible these days. Secondly, all of the subset, insert, and mini cards in packs make it so that you only end up with about 4 base cards per pack. Base cards, minis, chromes, refractors, different colored refractors, X-fractors, variation cards.... all of the "sets within a set" are a pain in my ass.
That's really where my annoyance with price comes in. $2-$4 per pack wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to buy 3 or 4 boxes just to come close to completing a BASE set. I really feel for the people that collect Topps Heritage. It's a great concept, but you need to buy a case just to get the whole base set. WTF?!
And don't get me started on how many so-called "rookie cards" players have these days. The hobby was more fun back in the day when each player only had three or four RC's (at most). Back then, the first RC was the true RC. Today, the "first RC" could have normal, chrome, and multiple refractor variations. It just gets complicated.
One final gripe--companies "low end" sets look like garbage these days. Why would a kid want to buy a so-called "affordable" pack when the cards look crummy? Why would I want to buy those packs, for that matter? I want cards with eye appeal. Unfortunately, for modern, that means $4/pack and up. (which I'd rather spend on Nolan Ryan cards from before 1994)
mosaic's Nolan Ryan Basic Topps registry set
mosaic's Big 3 Nolan Ryan Run Showcase
Last year the amount of teens buying cards went up 300%
That's pretty darn encouraging.
Sets are down - you will never see 3 - 5 baseball sets again - but they have drastically reduced it.
I've always inferred from many that they feel they have to corner the market.
IMO, pick a set or two that you can afford and like and do it.
That's why I only do Heritage.
Keep in mind - talking about buying vintage cards or older cards predating a certain time vs. collecting modern is really irrelevant to the modern card market/hobby.
mike
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
<< <i>I remember how mad i got when Topps went from 15 cents to 20 cents a pack.
New stuff is too dang expensive and I agree with what someone posted earlier when they compared it to lottery tickets. >>
I agree!!! The lottery. I remember when it went from .40 to .45 then Upper Deck came out and I remember people gretting mad at the price of $1 or was it $2.
I like the GU and autos but I dont buy boxes and its scary the MANY ways people can search packs. I bought 2 "guaranteed" jersey packs recently to see if Beckett was right in their comments on people resealing the packs and thats how they guarantee GU and autos. Nah, not on these. I thought they were wrong. Its all about pack and apparently box placement. I saw a guaranteed Gold Refractor pack on ebay. Not just a refractor but they know where the Gold one is ?? Damn.
the problem as i saw it (first hand) was that MLB and the Players union sold liscenses to too many companys. Some were just sold by the union, No logos, some by MLB, with logos. Even in 1986 one could not buy all the various regionals and mainstream sets w/o going broke.
The fact that each mainstram company began selling as many as 20 sets per year (gotta get back that liscense fee) is what killed the hobby.
Stores, investors, and collectors never kill a hobby outright. OVERPRODUCTION does though.
Stores go out of business, investors lose money, and collectors wind up holding cards with lil to no value.
Steve
I'm very disappointed in the way the "Rookie Card" has been handled this year. MLB Properties makes a big deal about eliminating cards from the market (in 2006 forward) that were made before a player sees the field in the majors.
So that way, if you got a "Rookie Card" out of a pack in the future, it would be a REAL rookie card.
Of course the biggest products of the year? Bowman, Bowman Chrome and Bowman Draft Picks. Chock full of players, in ML uniforms, who've never played in ML games. Thus rendering thier actual RCs, worthless.
More and more, it feels like a fleecing of the customer, and as one poster put it, like buying scratch-off tickets.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
Collect what you enjoy within reason and you should be OK.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>Collect what you enjoy within reason and you should be OK. >>
It always seems to come down to that tenet.
This is gonna sound like preaching but...
If ya collecting for a payday down the road - chances are you'll be disappointed.
If ya collecting for the joy of completing a set and follow the game - know the players - put the set in a binder and look at the cards from time to time - chances are you'll be elated.
mike
And most cases whenever an item is created soley to be a collectable chances are it will sink. True rookie cards should have nothing to do with when a player steps on a field. Rookie cards were a players first appearence on a nationally distributed set. Nothing more or less. At least since 1948 since we have had no distrubtion in years. Pre 48 regionals could be considered.
Steve
My guess is what happened to cards is that card companies started creating issues based on multiple price points. There is the kid market and the adult market and card companies targeted brands in those areas.
The explosion in the number of sets was a good thing to me. I used to try to keep up with buying a set for each issue and that ended up being a lot of cards. Once Stadium Club came about, I said forget it, I don't have to worry about purchasing each set. I can find something I like and just get that. Suddenly it became about collecting, not just acquiring.
I collect cards now for the same reasons I did 30 years ago. I like the photography and designs on the cards. Collectors that think that inexpensive cards have poor designs may be influenced by the cost of the product. The designs and photos of cards from the mid 70s aren't all that impressive when stacked up against the low cost cards of today. I'll happily take a low cost set today, put it in a binder and flip through it. It may be garbage, but if I've looked at it a few times, its probably given me as much pleasure as the couple of fast food meals I would have purchased with the $40 (about the cost of a Topps factory set these days).
I leave the chase cards to the other chasers, or pick the ones I want and purchase those on the secondary market. Yeah, it will be fun to pull the Mantle signature out of a Heritage box, but I'm not counting on it.
predating a certain time vs. collecting modern is really irrelevant
to the modern card market/hobby."
//////////////////////////////////
I dunno.
If we could poll the end-user collectors/investors that now prop-up
the price structure of cards we think of as "vintage," I suspect that
we would find a huge majority had some connection to card collecting
when they were kids.
If today's young kids do not get a fun taste of the hobby NOW, when
they are 50-years old will they be there to facilitate the "hand-off" (and
the price/value stabilization) of the "vintage" inventory preserved by,
for example, the quality of collectors/investors represented on this
message board?
The fight to win back today's kids to the pack-buying club, could have
very long lasting effects on future values of cards we now think of as
rare and vintage. If negative, those effects will/may not be seen for
two or three decades. If positive, the transition of ownership from one
generation to the next will be seamless.
storm
<< <i>
<< <i>Collect what you enjoy within reason and you should be OK. >>
It always seems to come down to that tenet.
This is gonna sound like preaching but...
If ya collecting for a payday down the road - chances are you'll be disappointed.
If ya collecting for the joy of completing a set and follow the game - know the players - put the set in a binder and look at the cards from time to time - chances are you'll be elated.
mike >>
Mike your answers is why I collect. Truthfully I never used this for more than a hobby.
The last several years have shown that the hottest stuff increases drastically in price, while everything else drops dramatically.
So new buyers focus ever more on the hottest cards, and the prices of everything else drop even more.
Meanwhile, I'll ignore most modern cards but have fun putting together cheaply some of my thematic sets (autos and GU of HOFers, some parallel sets, etc.).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I was very encouraged when I read Stone's post about Topps sales going up and more teenagers getting in the hobby. I hope they are getting in the for the right reasons and not to get rich quick. Though, I have no problem with people collectiong for both investment and enjoyment or else there would probably be no PSA. It really is a great hobby, and for those who criticize, we could all be spending our money on a lot worse things.
This is a little off topic, but when I was younger I used to collect more football than baseball. But as I got older I enjoyed baseball more because you can capture the history of the game. I have heard some say that football cards will take off once the NFL sells its history, I could not disagree more with that statement. The NFL is a sport built for the casual observer and I can't see as many hardcore collectors emerging as there is with baseball. Now that may change 25 or 30 years from now since I believe we are in the "Golden Age" of the NFL and have been so for about the last twenty years. That being said, the old football cards will never hold the magic that guys like Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Ty Cobb and Ted Williams hold. They are still acknowledged amongst the greats. With the exception of a handful of guys like Unitas, Jim Brown and Butkus the best NFL players are from the 1980's up.
Back in 1992 I see that Topps stock traded around $17 (with intraday highs in the $20 range according to Yahoo). And then in November of '92 until February '93 the stock price tanked to around $9 a share and slowly declined from that point unil it bottomed out at $2.22 a share in December of '97. I don't know what changed, but in August of '98 the stock price started a healthy rise up to a trading range between $8 and $12 a share and it's pretty much stayed there for the last 7 years.
I'm not exactly a financial expert, but it seems to me like Topps, at least, is not a company that seems to be growing at all since 2000. This report of increased collecting amongst kids doesn't seem to have improved the companies stock performance yet. I know that the stock price doesn't tell the whole story so I looked at the companies balance sheet and saw that the net income has decreased 12.695 million in 2004 to 1.239 million in 2006.
It also sounds like most of the growth in collecting percentage is coming from kids buying football cards and Europeans buying World Cup cards.
<< <i>"Keep in mind - talking about buying vintage cards or older cards
predating a certain time vs. collecting modern is really irrelevant
to the modern card market/hobby."
//////////////////////////////////
I dunno.
If we could poll the end-user collectors/investors that now prop-up
the price structure of cards we think of as "vintage," I suspect that
we would find a huge majority had some connection to card collecting
when they were kids.
If today's young kids do not get a fun taste of the hobby NOW, when
they are 50-years old will they be there to facilitate the "hand-off" (and
the price/value stabilization) of the "vintage" inventory preserved by,
for example, the quality of collectors/investors represented on this
message board?
The fight to win back today's kids to the pack-buying club, could have
very long lasting effects on future values of cards we now think of as
rare and vintage. If negative, those effects will/may not be seen for
two or three decades. If positive, the transition of ownership from one
generation to the next will be seamless.
storm >>
Storm
That wasn't my point.
All I was saying is that kids today are buying modern and may have no connection with the 50s, 60s, 70s etc.
I can talk all day long about the 60s and how cards were cheap, better or whatever...
But, that has no bearing on what is being done today in the modern sales market - I have said a zillion times that today's young modern collector will be tomorrow's vintage collector.
The modern market is improving - and can be discussed - as such - without any talk of how it used to be.
That's all I was trying to say.
There has been a 300% improvement in the % of kids buying cards - that's one heck of a start - glass half full - if ya know what I mean.
mike
This type of discussion comes up from time to time in some way or another.
So, where does this leave us?
I believe no one should make value judgements on anyone's collecting tastes - collect or investor.
We - surely - can coexist and share ideas.
Buying/flipping stuff to help pay for one's hobby is not "investing" IMO.
Dealers are not even in this equation - any hobby requires dealers - full or part-time.
But, I do have an impression from my limited experience.
A CORE problem with the hobby is the preoccupation with assigning monetary (book) value to items that are picked up - whether it be a pack of Heritage or an autographed ball e.g. - as CENTRAL to the collection rather than a footnote for the purpose of insurance e.g.
In the business world - we hear all the time about ROI - return on investment.
A Hobby's ROI - return on investment - is happiness.
mike
<< <i>I believe no one should make value judgements on anyone's collecting tastes - collect or investor. >>
Mike, you're the wisest man on this board...by far.
But, i must partially disagree.
If the intent of a collector is to make money...the hobby no longer becomes that...but it becomes a business venture. As you stated in one of your other aphorisms, flipping cards to gain capital for building your collection isnt bad. What is bad is when a non established dealer collects cards solely to earn a profit.
When money enters the equation, things usually go south. Just go to a card show and you'll see what trying to make money out of a innocuous venture can do to a man. Look at Ebay and view auctions for PRO cards, reprints and other alterations and abuses of card collecting.
Now, if none of this really effects the majority of collectors....that's a different story. But, it does effect us. It effects our kids because they are getting priced out of an overly saturated modern market. It effects new collectors because they dont know the difference between a NM and a EX card...or a PRO holder and a PSA holder. It effects us current collectors because our faith in market price, grading and even dealer integrity can and has been shaken.
My point is, i would be 10x as happy if the collecting world was not as profitable as it is today. Not just because i can actually buy a common 1915 cracker jack card under $100 for once...but because the air of comraderie, enjoyment and simple pleasure would fill the room of a card show rather than the stink of capitalism.
pleasure would fill the room of a card show rather than the
stink of capitalism. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
Some random thoughts about that concept:
I have been attending shows for near about forever.
The lust for money was alive and well at every one
of them; long before there were 50-sets a year being
cranked out by the corps.
There was probably a slight worsening of the greed
aspects when coin-dealers started dabbling heavily
in cards during the 70s, but every card dealer I ever
met was pretty receptive to making money, too.
I absolutely do not see how the aftermarket is much of
a culprit in the pre-2006 dirth of kids. TOPPS has pretty
much admitted that they - and their competitors - made
some big mistakes, and they are now trying to fix the
problem.
The primary reason that we can buy any Cracker Jack
cards at all is that before any of us were born, somebody
said, "I am going to keep these; they're going to be worth
something, someday."
The "preservers," for the most part, did not say, "I am
going to keep these because they are cool and will have
historic value, someday."
In 1958, every kid in my sphere new the difference in the
rarity/value of star cards. Capitalism was just as alive then
as it is today. There might be good reasons to long for the
good-old-days of cards, but those days were about the same
as these; we just saw them through younger eyes.
Good things come to collectors/hobbies because there
is a financial motive to deliver good things. Absent that
motive, few here would be likely to have the collections
that they have now.
storm
<< <i> In 1958, every kid in my sphere new the difference in the
rarity/value of star cards. Capitalism was just as alive then
as it is today. There might be good reasons to long for the
good-old-days of cards, but those days were about the same
as these; we just saw them through younger eyes. >>
True enough.
Back then at my school, there were Mickey Mantle cards ... and then all those other ones ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Yes, I collect shiny modern crap
All your Shaq are belong to me
The best advice anyone can give.
keep the cards as a hobby
Steve