THE BATTLE CREEK DOLLARS ARE NT...PERIOD!!!

coingame2000

Although one is entitled, to think or opine otherwise clearly demonstrates (at least to me) the abscence of any meaningful battlefield experience when it comes to having handled ORIGINAL mint bag toned Morgan dollars -- but that's just my opinion. Anyway, following is a link to NGC's press release regarding the Battle Creek silver dollars that will hopefully shed some light on the discussion that has taken place on this message board over the past few days: BATTLE CREEK $1 PRESS RELEASE

tradedollarnut

"We’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of original dollar bags without seeing the quality and richness of color seen on these coins. A group like this won’t come up again soon."

Interesting quote...

Shamika

Thank you for the link.

dthigpen

It is my opinion that they are all AT.

originalisbest

It is my view, that I'm glad I don't pursue "ga-ga" toned coins, as a rule. If a coin happens to have it, perhaps subtly, that's great. But to each their own.

coingame2000

<< <i>"We’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of original dollar bags without seeing the quality and richness of color seen on these coins. A group like this won’t come up again soon."

Interesting quote... >>



Bruce: It was twenty plus years since the last comparable group of bags made it appearance. Interesting quote? That just reaffirms to me how special these coins really are and how seldom the opportunity presents itself to acquire such exquisite (natural) numismatic works of art. NGC and now PCGS (they've crossed Sunnywood's Battle Creek dollars into PCGS holders) seem to wholeheartedly believe in the originality of these marvelous coins. Their opinion combined with those of long-time seasoned professionals such as myself and Larry Shepherd equal a heck of a lot of real world experience.

Mikey

coingame2000

<< <i>It is my opinion that they are all AT. >>



An opinion is only worth the knowledge and experience behind it...

Mikey

dragon

<<< Anyway, following is a link to NGC's press release regarding the Battle Creek silver dollars that will hopefully shed some light on the discussion that has taken place on this message board over the past few days >>>


Is this the same NGC that has graded, holdered, and given star designations to so many artificially colored Peace dollars that I've long since lost count?


Without going into detail, I for one have some serious reservations about quite a few of the BC toned coins I've examined, and I would take anything NGC says regarding them with a grain of salt considering they had a significant financial interest in grading and holdering all those coins.

clw54

What's the story behind this collection, anyway? I was just searching old threads and one person said a dealer acquired several bags of Morgans and that's the "Battle Creek Collection." Is this true?

GullibleNewb

<< <i>What's the story behind this collection, anyway? I was just searching old threads and one person said a dealer acquired several bags of Morgans and that's the "Battle Creek Collection." Is this true? >>



Not very exciting, is it? Dizzyfoxx will show up in a second with a little tent in his pants, breathlessly telling you there are secret little wrinkles in the story that make it even more wonderful.

RYK

Without going into detail, I for one have some serious reservations about quite a few of the BC toned coins I've examined, and I would take anything NGC says regarding them with a grain of salt considering they had a significant financial interest in grading and holdering all those coins.

I would be more inclined to take the side of a Morgan specialist who has no financial interest in BC Morgans than to trust a dealer who makes a market in them on the AT vs. NT issue. I do find it interesting that many high end dealers who do sell Morgans have completely avoided these coins (Legend, Pinnacle, Mark Feld immediately come to mind), as we have previously discussed. It appears that advanced collectors are all over the place in their opinions on the matter. That said, Stman has been right previously whenever the AT issue has raised its ugly head--I am sticking with him on Battle Creek--whatever his opinion is. Bottom line: if it's a battleground there's no reason for me to get involved with my collection.

notwilight

Ok. I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not interested in toned coins other than the interesting academic issue before the discussion board right now (what are we going to do about AT vs NT). I've stated before that from a scientific viewpoint, there is no difference between AT and NT. As an unbiased observer it appears to me that most people who think or claim they can tell the difference are actually making educated guesses based on how reputable the seller/presenter is and how dramatic the coloration looks. If it looks dramatic, the rule of thumb is that it is "definitely AT".

These BC dollars are a conumdrum because they seem to come from a reputable source (NT indicator) but are very dramaticly colored ("obviously AT").

--Jerry

robertpr

NGC and now PCGS (they've crossed Sunnywood's Battle Creek dollars into PCGS holders) seem to wholeheartedly believe in the originality of these marvelous coins.

Because we all know how the services have no incentive whatsoever to bring ga-ga color coins into the marketplace and promote them, inside of plastic of course.

Leiana

I surely can't state my position with much conviction, but... I wasn't there watching the coins in the bags their entire existance, nor was I there when the bags were first opened to the light nor was I personally witness to any ATing of BC coins. So I can't BE totally sure in any sort of asessment.

I will say that they do not fall along the lines of the very obviously AT junk you can find on eBay.

I will also say that they do not look like any other toned Morgans that I have seen.

And I will leave it at that.

-Amanda

fountainheadgold

Battle Creek Morgan's are unquestionable NT, Those who think otherwise are mistaking

GullibleNewb

I believe they are all NT, but perhaps the bags were stored for awhile in conditions favorable to a little additional toning.

What irritates me more is the tweaked photos of them. Island Coins takes the crappiest photos of all.

coingame2000

<< <i><<< Anyway, following is a link to NGC's press release regarding the Battle Creek silver dollars that will hopefully shed some light on the discussion that has taken place on this message board over the past few days >>>


Is this the same NGC that has graded, holdered, and given star designations to so many artificially colored Peace dollars that I've long since lost count?


Without going into detail, I for one have some serious reservations about quite a few of the BC toned coins I've examined, and I would take anything NGC says regarding them with a grain of salt considering they had a significant financial interest in grading and holdering all those coins. >>



Howard: I know the provenance of these (Battle Creek) dollars, and although I am not at liberty to share that information publicly, there were nine ORIGINAL bags in the deal and that I'm 100% confident that the toning is for real (which won't mean a hill of beans to the naysayers because I have a vested interest). It's a genuine shame (maybe even a disgrace) that such incredible original coins are being denigrated on this message board. It seems the truth is taking a backseat to bashing -- sort of like what goes on in the tabloids, which is a sad commentary indeed.

Mikey

clw54

If you Google for "Battle Creek Collection" you come up mostly with links to NGC grading them or dealers selling them. There isn't much on what the collection was before that. It sounds like a market was created out of something that didn't really exist as a collection as collections are usually understood.

uofa1285

Know what you are talking about before nay-saying! Do some research folks! I haven't read the other thread but for ANY collector or dealer to suggest they are AT is absolute folly. The definition of Ignorance. Period. End of story. Next thread please.

Doug

Cherwood

This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious just how many Morgans were in a "mint sealed bag"?

The article states that: "For a coin to tone, it must have rested against the canvas fabric of the bag, which in turn needed to be stored in a stable environment that fostered its development." That's why I was curious about how many are in a bag, cause if there's very many, it doesn't seem like all of them would "rest against the fabric".

Leiana

<< <i>This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious just how many Morgans were in a "mint sealed bag"? >>



I think they were in bags of 1,000.

-Amanda

sumnom

It is my view, that I'm glad I don't pursue "ga-ga" toned coins, as a rule. If a coin happens to have it, perhaps subtly, that's great. But to each their own.

Right on.

notwilight

<< <i>Know what you are talking about before nay-saying! Do some research folks! I haven't read the other thread but for ANY collector or dealer to suggest they are AT is absolute folly. The definition of Ignorance. Period. End of story. Next thread please. Doug >>




Doug,
I don't know you and haven't noticed your posts so I'm not making a personal attack on you. But it always causes me to smile and shake my head, on this board or any of a dozen others I frequent, when a person strongly states their position without a shred of logical support, then suggests moving on and ending the discussion like their strong statement, without any support argument, will sway the masses, all will be convinced, and the thread will die.

Good luck,
Jerry

Blackhawk

One observation on the forum toning debate...It seems when one of the small time collectors posts a toned coin on the forum that people quickly point out that "the colors are too bright", that "colors like that are not natural", etc., etc., etc.. The next post could have a toned coin owned by a dealer or bigtime collector that looks like something drawn with neon markers by someone on an acid trip and everyone oohs and aahs and never calls it's toning into question.

Hadleydog

<< <i>Ok. I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not interested in toned coins other than the interesting academic issue before the discussion board right now (what are we going to do about AT vs NT). I've stated before that from a scientific viewpoint, there is no difference between AT and NT. As an unbiased observer it appears to me that most people who think or claim they can tell the difference are actually making educated guesses based on how reputable the seller/presenter is and how dramatic the coloration looks. If it looks dramatic, the rule of thumb is that it is "definitely AT".

These BC dollars are a conumdrum because they seem to come from a reputable source (NT indicator) but are very dramaticly colored ("obviously AT").

--Jerry >>



I have some very dramatically colored coins in my collection, many from the Continental Bank Hoard which we all agree was natural toning at its finest.
Sorry sir, but to use the rule of thumb that 'if a coin is dramatically toned it must be at' is very wrong. Did you not see the pics of manofcoins morgans? They were terrible, fugly things that fairly screamed at. Have you seen tonecoin2000's work? That's where the mighty Anacondas Peace dollar came from, and it looked very, very unique for a Peace dollar. In fact, it looked just like his (tonecoins') Frankies, and Kennedys, and everything else he's done. The volcanoe coins, the desert coins, all butt-fugly. Now the Peakok Ikes.........well, that's a different topic all together (and besides, they got a good story. ).

Here is a coin from the Continental Bank Hoard.......vibrant, dramatic and nt.

zenny

<< <i>If you Google for "Battle Creek Collection" you come up mostly with links to NGC grading them or dealers selling them. There isn't much on what the collection was before that. It sounds like a market was created out of something that didn't really exist as a collection as collections are usually understood. >>




Claw, it was not a "collection" it was a hoard.

Hadleydog

<< <i>

<< <i>If you Google for "Battle Creek Collection" you come up mostly with links to NGC grading them or dealers selling them. There isn't much on what the collection was before that. It sounds like a market was created out of something that didn't really exist as a collection as collections are usually understood. >>




Claw, it was not a "collection" it was a hoard. >>



Agreed, a hoard is what it really was.
But then again, so was the Binion collection.

Hadleydog

I like the way Don Willis puts it............make up your own mind. If ya like em, buy 'em. If ya don't, pass. I guess we'll know the real answer in about ten years, but I'm not running out the door trying to sell the one BC coin I have. Quite like it, in fact....

zenny

<< <i>
But then again, so was the Binion collection. >>




Yup.

MajorDuty

<< <i>I would take anything NGC says regarding them with a grain of salt considering they had a significant financial interest in grading and holdering all those coins. >>



An excellent point not to be overlooked. While I've never held a BC Morgan and will withhold judgment, it reminds me of all the times I've read glowing reviews about a new motorcycle in a leading magazine, and then after turning a few pages surprise, there is a full-page ad for said motorcycle.

MikeInFL

<< <i>

<< <i>It is my opinion that they are all AT. >>



An opinion is only worth the knowledge and experience behind it...

>>



...and one must factor in the bias (read financial interest) of the person speaking...Mike

uofa1285

<< <i>

<< <i>Know what you are talking about before nay-saying! Do some research folks! I haven't read the other thread but for ANY collector or dealer to suggest they are AT is absolute folly. The definition of Ignorance. Period. End of story. Next thread please. Doug >>




Doug,
I don't know you and haven't noticed your posts so I'm not making a personal attack on you. But it always causes me to smile and shake my head, on this board or any of a dozen others I frequent, when a person strongly states their position without a shred of logical support, then suggests moving on and ending the discussion like their strong statement, without any support argument, will sway the masses, all will be convinced, and the thread will die.

Good luck,
Jerry >>



Jerry,

No problem, I don't take your comment personally at all. I was being overly dramatic but I thank you for (unwittingly) supporting my point...examine my post closely and you should gleen that your response (above) is exactly the point I am describing for the Battlecreek-AT-crowd - Back it up or shut it up!



Doug

agentjim007

someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric.

Sunnywood

I do find it interesting that many high end dealers who do sell Morgans have completely avoided these coins (Legend, Pinnacle, Mark Feld immediately come to mind), as we have previously discussed. It appears that advanced collectors are all over the place in their opinions on the matter.

RYK, the retail dealers you mentioned do not normally deal in beautifully toned Morgan dollars at all, except on consignment. That's because the market for these coins is a niche, and the prices are difficult to get a handle on. The fact that these dealers passed on BC implies nothing with respect to their opinions of the coins. To infer otherwise is simply a mistake. Several dealers who have specialized in toned Morgans for many years endorsed these coins. Those dealers have a very strong interest in keeping AT coins OUT of the marketplace. A flood of AT coins in legitimate holders would harm the market for beautifully and naturally toned coins. And yet those specialist dealers bought these coins for inventory.

Further, it is not true that "advanced collectors are all over the place ... " The fact is, advanced collectors of this type of material, including those of us who have studied toning from a physical and chemical perspective, have pretty much unanimously agreed that these coins are legitimate and worthy of inclusion in our collections. I did not NEED to buy an 1886-P or 1887-P Morgan dollar for my set; I already had several beautifully toned examples of each date. However, the unusually magnificent (and to my eye clearly legitimate) toning on the BC coins that I purchased made them prime candidates for the set.

The "Battle Creek Collection" was of course a name made up to describe the subset of toned coins that came out of a particular group of Mint bags. The selection of the name was merely an identifier, a label by which we could refer to this group of coins now and in the future. It was also a marketing tool, plain and simple. The coins, however, speak for themselves. (Similarly, auction consignments are often offered by major auction houses under fictitious consignor names. That doesn't make the consigned coins illegitimate.)

I applaud open discussion, and to me there was nothing wrong in raising questions about Battle Creek. In fact, those questions were discussed at length when the "Collection" first came to light. The current crop of threads comprises a random rehash of the topic; the marketplace has long since accepted these coins. It is amazing how folks on these Boards will jump on a bandwagon regardless of what direction it is heading in, and regardless of their own lack of specific expertise in the matter at hand.

Best,
Sunnywood

Louis

You can put your boots in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

RYK

I applaud open discussion, and to me there was nothing wrong in raising questions about Battle Creek. In fact, those questions were discussed at length when the "Collection" first came to light. The current crop of threads comprises a random rehash of the topic; the marketplace has long since accepted these coins. It is amazing how folks on these Boards will jump on a bandwagon regardless of what direction it is heading in, and regardless of their own lack of specific expertise in the matter at hand.

Sunnywood,

As usual, an excellent, thorough, and level-headed response to my post, without the theatrics that often accompanies those who share your viewpoint.

As I indicated in my post, there is enough controversy that I would not personally make a big financial commitment in BC Morgans (or anything that engendered as much spirited debate). Just not my style.

I think I like Hadleydog's answer the best:

I like the way Don Willis puts it............make up your own mind. If ya like em, buy 'em. If ya don't, pass. I guess we'll know the real answer in about ten years, but I'm not running out the door trying to sell the one BC coin I have. Quite like it, in fact....

My son is attracted to color Morgans (I don't know where he gets that predilection ), but sooner or later I anticipate being cornered into buying one or more BC Morgans for him. It is nice for me to know where the knowledgeable people stand on the issue.

IrishMike

RYK and Sunnywood nice to read some well thought out posts.

ANACONDA

"One observation on the forum toning debate...It seems when one of the small time collectors posts a toned coin on the forum that people quickly point out that "the colors are too bright", that "colors like that are not natural", etc., etc., etc.. The next post could have a toned coin owned by a dealer or bigtime collector that looks like something drawn with neon markers by someone on an acid trip and everyone oohs and aahs and never calls it's toning into question."

I don't believe that is true. Nowadays when an image of a toned coin is posted, no matter who posts it, some moron just has to say "It's AT!"

coinlieutenant

My son is attracted to color Morgans (I don't know where he gets that predilection ),

Might want to see if the milkman collects colored Morgans.

CoinResource

Every single one I've seen looks 100% NT.

clw54

<< <i>The "Battle Creek Collection" was of course a name made up to describe the subset of toned coins that came out of a particular group of Mint bags. The selection of the name was merely an identifier, a label by which we could refer to this group of coins now and in the future. It was also a marketing tool, plain and simple. The coins, however, speak for themselves. (Similarly, auction consignments are often offered by major auction houses under fictitious consignor names. That doesn't make the consigned coins illegitimate.) >>



Thanks.

coinguy1

Robert, Sunnywood was correct in that the fact that I and certain other dealers don't participate in the Battle Creek segment of the market doesn't necessarily speak to whether we think the color is original or not. For the record, I believe that the coins are NT.

This is what I posted in a couple of other threads on the subject:



<< <i>I believe that anyone who has bought or sold one or more of these coins is biased, and even, that some who have done neither are also biased. Bias does not diminish one's knowledge or expertise, however.

I have viewed a good number of Battle Creek Morgans, certainly many more than some people and just as certainly, far fewer than others. Ditto for the number of other Morgan Dollars I have examined and/or graded over the years. The color on the Battle Creek Dollars looks uncommonly vibrant/bright/wild/vivid in a number of instances, but my guess/opinion is that it's original/natural.

I think that anyone who says they are 100% sure of anything with respect to much of what we discuss with respect to coins (including, of course, the AT/NT debates), should at least consider using a slightly lower % of certainty in their statements. After all, numerous experts have been 100% certain of various things numismatic over the years, which turned out to be incorrect. These are my OPINIONS and I am NOT 100% certain of them. >>

TorinoCobra71

<< <i>Although one is entitled, to think or opine otherwise clearly demonstrates (at least to me) the abscence of any meaningful battlefield experience when it comes to having handled ORIGINAL mint bag toned Morgan dollars -- but that's just my opinion. Anyway, following is a link to NGC's press release regarding the Battle Creek silver dollars that will hopefully shed some light on the discussion that has taken place on this message board over the past few days: BATTLE CREEK $1 PRESS RELEASE >>



Thanks for that 15 MONTH OLD news article..............



TorinoCobra71

"Try gettin' them suckers in PCGS Plastic!"

clw54

So did NGC take possesion of all unopened bags, break the seals, and cherrypick the toners?

morgansforever

Great info gentlemen. The NGC article clearly explains how to tone a Morgan. One only needs some canvas Mint bags, 50% humidity, blast Morgans, 10 years or more, and just like that NT screamers. Is it possible at some future point, there will be so many toned coins, with so many crazy colors, no one will know the difference??

bestclser1

There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 9,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 3 1/2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO

bestclser1

<< <i>Great info gentlemen. The NGC article clearly explains how to tone a Morgan. One only needs some canvas Mint bags, 50% humidity, blast Morgans, and just like that NT screamers. Is it possible at some future point, there will be so many toned coins, with so many crazy colors, no one will know the difference?? >>

No,as it also takes decades in those conditions.Please dont leave out THAT important piece of information.

morgansforever

<<No,as it also takes decades in those conditions.Please dont leave out THAT important piece of information.>>

I agree, it does take decades to get those bag colors. On the other hand you have to assume that there is someone, trying to accelerate this process.

Cherwood

<< <i>someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric. >>



Wow, that was me.......someone actually read my post!

However, I think someone said later that the percentage of toned coins from the bags was actually much smaller.

Cherwood

<< <i>There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 18,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO >>



So there's 2,000 in a bag and not 1,000?

bestclser1

Sorry about the math.But less than 4% is still a very small percentage,and personally that 300-350 number is high.I own about a dozen,and got all but about a dozen more that i really wanted.