Discussion about the Wille Mays catch - overrated?
frankhardy
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in Sports Talk
This may be blasphemy to some baseball fans, but I want to discuss this - the infamous catch the Willie Mays made in the World Series. Now, I'm not stupid. I know it was a great catch. If was very difficult to make, and it was at a critical time. I bring this up because because I see play after play after play that is much more impressive. For instance, the catch Gary Mathews Jr made recently when he robbed someone of a homerun. That was impressive.
Let's take a look at Jim Edmonds. If you take the Edmonds catch in the 2004 playoffs (LINK OF VIDEO BELOW) against the Astros (or the other 10 that he has made exactly like that in his career where he goes back toward the wall and dives AWAY from home plate) and compare it to the Willie Mays' catch in the World Series, the Mays' catch DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to the catches that Edmonds has made. I realize that the Mays' catch was in the World Series (that probably has something to do with the hype of it), but, come one, Jim Edmonds has a catch that was just as impressive last night. He went back towards the wall and caught it over his shoulder just like Mays. I think Edmonds does that about once a week. I think the Mays' catch is one of those "fishing tales" that always gets bigger with each time you tell it. If you take a look at just the two plays, Edmonds is by far the greater catch.
I am NOT making an arguement that Edmonds playoff catch was the greatest of all time. That is another discussion. I am trying to make a point that the Mays' catch (and the difficulty of it) is overrated, and that I can think of ten plays off the top of my head that are better than the catch of Willie Mays.
Feel free to bash my arguement.
October 21 - Jim Edmonds Diving Catch
Jim Edmonds Over the Shoulder Grab
I am trying to find a video of the Mays' catch. I can only come up with a picture. Does anybody know where a video is?
Picture of the Mays' Catch
Let's take a look at Jim Edmonds. If you take the Edmonds catch in the 2004 playoffs (LINK OF VIDEO BELOW) against the Astros (or the other 10 that he has made exactly like that in his career where he goes back toward the wall and dives AWAY from home plate) and compare it to the Willie Mays' catch in the World Series, the Mays' catch DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to the catches that Edmonds has made. I realize that the Mays' catch was in the World Series (that probably has something to do with the hype of it), but, come one, Jim Edmonds has a catch that was just as impressive last night. He went back towards the wall and caught it over his shoulder just like Mays. I think Edmonds does that about once a week. I think the Mays' catch is one of those "fishing tales" that always gets bigger with each time you tell it. If you take a look at just the two plays, Edmonds is by far the greater catch.
I am NOT making an arguement that Edmonds playoff catch was the greatest of all time. That is another discussion. I am trying to make a point that the Mays' catch (and the difficulty of it) is overrated, and that I can think of ten plays off the top of my head that are better than the catch of Willie Mays.
Feel free to bash my arguement.
October 21 - Jim Edmonds Diving Catch
Jim Edmonds Over the Shoulder Grab
I am trying to find a video of the Mays' catch. I can only come up with a picture. Does anybody know where a video is?
Picture of the Mays' Catch
Shane
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ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Mays caught that ball some 450 feet from home plate, and he was not playing deep with runners on base in a 2-2 game in the 8th inning of a World Series game.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I would like to know how deep the centerfield wall was in that park. Was it 440'? I think so. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Houston's Minute Maid Park centerfield wall is about the same. Take a look at this catch before the All Star break this year. Edmonds went the same distance, dealt with a stupid hill after the warning track, and still made the catch.
July 7 - Edmond's grab on the hill
Shane
SD
See the link above that I just posted.
Shane
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The Catch, Willie Mays, 1954 World Series - Game 1, The Polo Grounds, September 29, 1954
In baseball, "The Catch" refers to a dazzling defensive play made by New York Giants centerfielder Willie Mays on a line drive by the Cleveland Indians' Vic Wertz more than 460 feet from home plate at New York's Polo Grounds to save Game 1 of the 1954 World Series.
With the score tied at 2-2, the Indians had Al Rosen on at first and Larry Doby on at second with nobody out and were threatening to pull ahead for the win. With the left-handed Vic Wertz coming up to bat, Giants manager Leo Durocher elected to pull right-handed starter Sal Maglie in favor of lefty reliever Don Liddle.
On a 1-2 pitch, Wertz hit the ball right on the screws, a long soaring line drive to dead center field. 22-year-old Willie Mays, finishing up his first full season in the major leagues, played the shallowest center field in the game, but he got a perfect jump on the ball. As soon as the ball was hit, Mays turned around, and with his head down and his back to the plate and the ball, sprinted more than 100 feet to the deepest part of the ballpark. At the last moment, on the dead run away from home plate, Mays put his glove up and made a two-handed, over-the-shoulder, basket catch an estimated 462 feet from the plate.
Way back, back! It is... Oh, what a catch by Mays! ... Willie Mays just brought this crowd to its feet with a catch which must have been an optical illusion to a lot of people. Boy! -Jack Brickhouse
As amazing as the catch was, Mays then arguably made an even more amazing play on the throw back to the infield to save the a run. As he made the catch he slammed on the brakes, whirled, and fired a no-look bullet to second base to hold Rosen at first and stop Doby at third. You see, Willie knew he was going to make the catch before he even made it, and was already starting the next phase of the play as he squeezed the ball into his glove.
The Giants got out of the inning unscathed, the score remained tied, the game went to extra innings and New York wound up winning 5-2 in the 10th on a three-run homer by pinch hitter Dusty Rhodes.
Wertz always maintained that it was the hardest ball he ever hit in his whole career, and it's hard to argue. There have been high fly balls that have travelled farther, but Wertz's was a line drive. That ball would have been a home run by 60 feet in any modern ballpark, but Wertz had the misfortune to hit his shot in the Polo Grounds, where the wall in straightaway center field was a ridiculous 483 feet from home plate.
And of course he also had the misfortune to hit it against Willie Mays.
Was it the best catch in baseball history? The short answer is no. Heck, it wasn't even the best catch Willie ever made - there were a couple of other catches he made whose descriptions almost defy belief. Branch Rickey was fond of recalling a catch that Mays made to rob Pittsburgh's Rocky Nelson at Forbes Field in which, on the dead run in the deepest part of center field with the ball slicing away from him Mays reached out with his right hand - the one without the glove - and made a bare-handed grab.
But none of those other catches were on television, and none of them happened in the World Series or with so much on the line. The Catch was also immortalized in one of the greatest sports photographs of all time - a grainy, black-and-white shot of Mays in full sprint, his back to home plate, reaching up with his glove and the ball - just about to be caught - suspended in the air above him.
Willie's catch was the perfect combination of beauty, grace, speed, and pure unadulterated athletic ability that has rarely if ever been matched in even the most technically difficult plays made by others. With the magnitude of the situation, the beauty of the play, and the immortality provided by the television replay and the perfect photograph, The Catch has come to be widely regarded as the greatest single defensive play in baseball history. But it is a tribute to Mays' greatness, that while the catch amazed the baseball world, his teammates all said they weren't even surprised. Having watched him play all year, they expected Willie to catch that ball.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I found another!
click it now and go to the link by BIO.
LINK IN PREVIOUS POST FIXED!
Thanks for the link to Edmonds' catch in Houston last week. I missed it, though my dad raved about it. I still think the NLCS grab was better. Again, context.
go hit the link in my First reply. I edited it and it works fine for me.
I will remove that last link....it is a direct link to the video.
This has been discussed quite often in the past and it seems to me that the World Series factor is the difference.
JoeBanzai
I suppose the one way to look at it would be, if any other centerfielder in history were playing where Mays was playing - would they have made the catch?
The bottom line is that virtually every one of those diving over the shoulder catches that Edmonds has made in his career, Willie Mays catches every one of those balls too, and probably most often wtihout having to dive. On the flip side, Edmonds is simply not fast enough to get to the ball that Mays caught...unless he could dive and then stretch like that guy from the Fantastic Four.
So is Edmonds' diving catch a better catch, if Mays can get to the same ball without diving? It may be more fantastic looking, but it isn't a better catch.
Actually, my vote for the best defensive play is when Ozzie Smith dove up the middle(a play where every single player would have to dive, unlike an Edmonds dive!), and while he was laid out, the ball took a funny hop and bounced back towards the direction of third. Ozzie quickly reached up and back with his bare hand while he was still in the air, and snared the ball. He gets up and throws the guy out.
Shane
<< <i>I will give you that Mays was a faster runner than Edmonds, but I can turn that arguement around (the argument that Mays didn't HAVE to dive because he got to the ball faster). My question is this - why didn' Willie Mays EVER make any catches diving away from home plate (at least that we know of)? Sure, Mays was faster, but he couldn't get to EVERY ball. So, on the ones he didn't get to standing up, why didn't he dive for them and make the catches that Edmods makes? >>
How do we know he never dove for them?
I think Edmonds is a fantastic fielder, but his every move is caught on tape. How many games were being televised in Mays' days?
One could also say that Edmonds has to dive for so many balls because he is either (a) slow, or (b) doesn't read the ball very well off the bat.
The argument can go both ways.
In running the Edmonds clips a number of times I don't see him catching the ball 450 feet from home. 440 at the most. The "hill" catch is less than 436, which you can see on the wall in one shot.
Edmonds is great and the diving catches are spectacular. In the "over the shoulder" catch, was he not even 400 ft. from home? He runs by a 400 ft. sign that looks to be in dead center.
I'll take the Mays catch over those listed here. It was farther and I think more difficult to track for that reason.
<< <i>
I'll take the Mays catch over those listed here. It was farther and I think more difficult to track for that reason. >>
So would I...throw in the magnitude of the game, and you have an understanding just how incredible it was.
I wonder, though, how much his legacy would have been different if he dropped that ball?
He'd still be Willie Mays whether he makes that catch or not. 660 career homeruns, and a sure fielder too!
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VintageJeff
I do recall that play by the Wizard - it was something else.
So many great plays by so many players.
<< <i>July 7 - Edmond's grab on the hill >>
Running up the hill, diving, and making the catch over his shoulder.
That was the greatest catch I've ever personally seen live.
Bar none.
It is simply not nearly as difficult a ball to catch as in the Mays one...a full out sprint running that far.
Frank, who said Mays never dove for a ball like that? I can tell you this, if Mays did have to dive for a ball like Edmonds, then that ball is a double or triple if Edmonds is out there.
E
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I'm not sure people realize how hard it is to go straight back in a full out sprint, for that distance and still be able to catch a ball. It is far easier to take 5 steps and then dive, then it is to run for a 100 feet as fast as you can, and then catch the ball that is hit directly straight at you. Not even close.
Hell, the catch that Matthews Jr. made for texas a couple weeks ago is more impressive that the Edmonds' catches - timing the jump up the wall to rob a home run? That to me is more impressive than laying out for a ball - those diving catches are made nightly in MLB.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I only picked those catches because they were very, very recent making the case that Edmonds does this stuff ALL THE TIME. Those two were just from the past two weeks for goodness sake. If they made a DVD of the top 100 catches of all time, I believe (not because of bias) that Jim Edmonds would have at least 5 of them and probably more.
Again, I am not making an argument for Edmonds being the greatest ever. I only use Jim Edmonds because I get to watch him every night. I could use different players, but Edmonds is the one that I am most familiar with. I personally think the Griffey Jr and Andruw Jones are probably two of the best of all time defensively in centerfield.
All I am saying is that (in disagreement with many of you) a good many players could have made that catch. I am also saying that (as many of you AGREE) that if the catch was not in the World Series, we would not have even remembered it.
I agree that today's players are all on tape, but if Mays' made so many spectacular catches, why don't we ever see or here of any more than the one we are discussing? The only one that I have ever seen that Mays dove for, he missed it. I know that Mays was one of the greatest. I am not debating that. I just think that players from the past get that "legendary status", and those legends grow over the years.
One other thing - Jim Edmonds plays nearly every play in shallow center.
Shane
<< <i>
One other thing - Jim Edmonds plays nearly every play in shallow center. >>
Maybe he needs to play deeper? Just a thought.
As far as many players being able to make the Mays catch, I have to respectfully disagree (as would many folks who know a ton more baseball than any of us here).
There's a reason it's revered as one of, if not *the* best catch in baseball history.
<< <i>Ax, there is nothing worse on these forums then agreeing with you. But I do. Frank is a Cardinal fan and of course the links he has go directly to a Cardinal site. Imagine the blow up if a Yankee fan posted a thread with links to Derek Jeter web gems from a Yankee site
I'm glad I could bring you two together. I just feel the love around here. It really touches me!
I looked on the Yankees site, and I couldn't find anything worth posting.
I'm kidding. I really didn't. Seriously, just go to MLB.com and you can look at highlights from any team. That page was just the Cardinals highlights.
Shane
Steve
No, he wasn't in a full sprint but to do an overhead catch while running up Tal's hill is incredible. I've never seen it done and know it's more difficult than it looks.
Now, go ahead and hammer away. I was just sort of thinking out loud (actually not out loud, but on the keyboard), but I still think that it is valid. I mean if Wertz's hit was a moon shot, then Mays had plenty of time to get to it, and I don't think that the running part should be factored in. Don't y'all think that I at least have a point?
I'll stop now.
Shane
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yes he's a great athlete, and yet he makes some great grabs...but enough already, there are plenty of other players on plenty of other players making similiar grabs nightly.
I have to wonder again if Edmonds was just a bit faster, or got a bit better read of the ball off the bat, would he need to make so many diving grabs?
Shane
<< <i>Happy 81st Willie! >>
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Similar to Brooks Robinson's play at third base, after the Series against the Reds, the Oriole's said "we see that all the time, no big deal".
Joe
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.