What are the "Top 10" 1921 Morgan VAM's?

JadeRareCoin

I doubt that there's an actual list (yet), but what are considered to be the top 5.....or 10..... 1921 Morgan Dollar VAM's? That includes P-D-S mints.

THANKS! Dennis

DennisH

Dennis:

Rob Joyce wrote about hIs Top 10 list of 1921-D coins in the March 2006 issue of VAMview, but there is no Top 10 list of 1921-PDS coins I've ever seen.

-- another Dennis

JrGMan2004

<< <i>Dennis:

Rob Joyce wrote about hIs Top 10 list of 1921-D coins in the March 2006 issue of VAMview, but there is no Top 10 list of 1921-PDS coins I've ever seen.

-- another Dennis >>

And I thought he had a flash of ESP and knew you would answer

1921obsession

The Pitted Reverses plus the Tailbar varieties would make a nice 1921P subset as probably the most prominent errors; the Thornheads and VAM-6A/6B are the obvious choice for 1921S. I wouldn't think of suggesting something other than Rob's ideas for 1921D's.

I think the 1921 Top Ten would have to be a Top 25.

JadeRareCoin

<< <i>The Pitted Reverses plus the Tailbar varieties would make a nice 1921P subset as probably the most prominent errors; the Thornheads and VAM-6A/6B are the obvious choice for 1921S. I wouldn't think of suggesting something other than Rob's ideas for 1921D's.

I think the 1921 Top Ten would have to be a Top 25. >>



I just found a 21 pitted reverse in a nice MS-63. What's that worth? I have Fey/Oxman's Top 100 and that coin is in there and listed at $100. Is that an accurate price?

Thanks for the info.

DennisH

Dennis:

Prices are all over the board, from about $125-$150 in PCGS holders to half that in NGC and ANACS holders... probably the result of Registry VAM Set collectors.

JadeRareCoin

<< <i>Dennis:

Prices are all over the board, from about $125-$150 in PCGS holders to half that in NGC and ANACS holders... probably the result of Registry VAM Set collectors. >>



Can't be too rare as I have now found 8 1A's, all unc.! Still have 100 more coins to check.

Thanks!

1921obsession

The 1A's (or 41's, unless he's changed his mind again) are pretty easy to find. I almost wonder if the R5 designation is accurate.

JadeRareCoin

I am up to 15 now! All Unc.

I also found a neat 21-D with a heavy break through ED STATES OF AMERIC on the reverse. I did not see that one on Rob's web site, which is a very nice web site, btw.

JadeRareCoin

Results: 15 1921 pitted reverses (Top 100??)
1 1921-S 1L (lines above TATES)
1 1921-D with heavy break through reverse legend (couldn't figure out the VAM on this one)

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>I am up to 15 now! All Unc.

I also found a neat 21-D with a heavy break through ED STATES OF AMERIC on the reverse. I did not see that one on Rob's web site, which is a very nice web site, btw. >>



Does it look like this VAM 1o?

JadeRareCoin

Does it look like this VAM 1o?

YES! But the crack extends through AMERIC and is heavy. Better VAM???

MAD4MORGANS

Can you post a picture?

JadeRareCoin

<< <i>Can you post a picture? >>

BlindedByEgo

I'm no expert - not by a long shot - but the shape of the break by the "A" looks very similar to my 1o. It's a lot more pronounced break - maybe later die state?

What say you VAM experts?

By way of comparison:

coindeuce

Jade, it looks pretty much to be the "horned O" VAM 1V or VAM 1o LDS(Late Die State). Don't have my copy of "Fun with '21" in front of me, but if you go to www.ashmore.com and go to the link for VAM updates from 2001-2006 you should get an image of it in the left margin. There are about 500 images posted there, including your VAM.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

JadeRareCoin,
I believe you have a very late die state VAM-1F. You can see it here:
http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/1921-D+VAM-1F

I've got most of the 1921-D VAM in Fun With 1921 posted to the new VAMworld space: www.vamworld.com

Hope it helps.

Rob

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

Guess what? I've actually thought about the top 10 1921 coins a couple times. I couldn't do it. I also tried the top 21 of 1921. I almost made it. Here's a thought for you guys:

1921-P Pitted reverses
1921-P Wide Reeds
1921-P Denticle Impressions (vams-31A & 40A)
1921-P VAM-19A retained cud America
1921-P VAM-24A Die chip above U
1921-P VAM-32A Capped A
1921-P VAM-3S die gouge on olive branch (no refs is there a better gouge?)
1921-P VAM-3I Meteor Shower Die Gouges First Left Star & 19
1921-P Spiked Tailfeather (VAM-3a1, 3A2, 3A3)
1921-D TRU_T VAM-1A2
1921-D Die Breaks over R: VAM-1B1,VAM-1B2, VAM-8A
1921-D _RUST (VAM9A and VAM-1Ai)
1921-D Unicorn VAM-1N
1921-D Streamer Wing VAM-3A
1921-D Jet O VAM-1AT
1921-D Die Break A VAM-1J
1921-D Die Gouge Wreath VAM-1U
1921-D VAM-1G DBR S STATES + Funny denticle damage
1921-S Thornheads
1921-S VAM-1C Pitted reverse
1921-S VAM-1F Beanie Break
1921-S Rain Denticles VAM-1L & VAM-1S
1921-S BU Gouge (w and w/o filled mint mark 6+ 6A?)


Notice I cheated by grouping clusters of VAMs together. All the thornheads being one line, all the pitted reverses, etc. Don't cheat and find just one example!

Regards,

Rob

1921obsession

<< <i>JadeRareCoin,
I believe you have a very late die state VAM-1F. You can see it here:
<a href="http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/1921-D+VAM-1F">http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/1921-D+VAM-1F</A&gt;

I've got most of the 1921-D VAM in Fun With 1921 posted to the new VAMworld space: www.vamworld.com

Hope it helps.

Rob >>



Ding! Bookmark.

hiyosilver

<<1921-S Rain Denticles VAM-1L & VAM-1S>>

VAM 1L ( 2 lines per denticle )

VAM 1Y ( 1 line per denticle )

Coxe

By Leroy's rarity assessment:

1921-P VAM-19A (Quadrupled Left Stars + Retained Cud)
1921-P VAM-24A (Chip Above U in UNITED)
1921-D VAM-1H (2nd Left Star Break) -- OUT
1921-D VAM-1i (Break N of UNITED) -- OUT
1921-D VAM-1J (Break A of STATES and Retained Cud)
1921-D VAM-1K (5th Left Star Break)
1921-D VAM-1X (Obverse Cud)
1921-D VAM-1AQ (Obverse Cud)
1921-D VAM-1BE (Strike Through) -- OUT
1921-D VAM-3A (Right Wing Break)
1921-S VAM-1B4A (Thornhead State 4)
1921-S VAM-1B7A (Thornhead State 7)
1921-S VAM-6B (Scratch BU + Weak S)

Those are the 13 he designated with R-7 rarity. 1921-D VAM-1H and VAM-1i definitely not R-7. 1921-D VAM-1BE should not be a designation in the first place. Those three can be dropped from the list.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

John,
The R-factor is a good way to build a desirability list. Hadn't considered doing one strictly by the numbers. The R values assigned by Leroy are a good ballpark estimate of rarity. Unfortunately, I've seen many assignments off quite a bit (like the ones you cite above). Think about the process: When he sees a new variety he has to decide at that moment an R value that estimates the total number of examples that will exist. Sometimes it is a no brainer: 1921-D VAM-1X. There can't be buckets out there of that massive break so it is an R7 lock. Others, say for instance the 1921-D VAM-1AT "Jet O" look like another common die break. It however is tremendously rare. No way to tell when you first see the discovery piece. On the other hand, sometimes a person will notice a VAM, get it assigned, then everybody that looks discovers that they are out there for the finding (readily available). With years of experience, Leroy does an awesome job of assigning these for every coins. Even so, I take the R factors with a grain of salt. I really wish we had accurate pop reports for every VAM out there as it would statistically tell the R value. Unfortuantely that will never happen for many of the coins. Good relative approximations exist for the top 100 pops and other coins will be understood as time goes on.

Rob

Wolf359

<< <i><<1921-S Rain Denticles VAM-1L & VAM-1S>>

VAM 1L ( 2 lines per denticle )

VAM 1Y ( 1 line per denticle )

>>



Awesome and unique vams for the Morgan series and well deserving of the top "21" status.

Wolf359

The Super Very Late Die State of 1921-D VAM-1F has a triangle shaft of metal under the '1' of the
date and another break extending into the field.

messydesk

<< <i>The R-factor is a good way to build a desirability list. Hadn't considered doing one strictly by the numbers. The R values assigned by Leroy are a good ballpark estimate of rarity. Unfortunately, I've seen many assignments off quite a bit (like the ones you cite above). >>


One of the things I wish he'd do, especially with the R-6 and higher coins, is monitor the new discoveries to see if his estimate is accurate. I think the only new discoveries to which he could accurately assign a rarity are 1878 8TF, 7/8TF, and B1 rev. (VAM numbers below 100). These have been scrutinized so closely for a long enough time for any new discovery (not including late die states) to be rather assuredly at least R-7 if the diagnostics are fairly clear.

1921obsession

<< <i>

<< <i><<1921-S Rain Denticles VAM-1L & VAM-1S>>

VAM 1L ( 2 lines per denticle )

VAM 1Y ( 1 line per denticle )

>>



Awesome and unique vams for the Morgan series and well deserving of the top "21" status. >>



I've had my mouse-finger poised to click on a VAM 1L I knew about, for a week. This was enough to make me click it.

Regarding the VAM 1BE - I have an example which is identical save that the strike is very slightly stronger, yet it's undoubtedly a 1921P as it has the lines in the top arrowhead which messydesk tells me is characteristic of the Philadelphia issue. Is the likelihood of a similar grease fill that great, or what?

Wolf359

yet it's undoubtedly a 1921P as it has the lines in the top arrowhead which messydesk tells me is characteristic of the Philadelphia issue

Characteristic of the D1 reverse type...that's been found (and is rare) on 21-D coins as well. Larry
Briggs confirmed it a couple years ago and I believe I have one as well.

See the VAM book about the D1 reverse design. If there are ever proofs located on 21-d coins,
they will be the D1 (first die used) reverse.

messydesk

<< <i>Characteristic of the D1 reverse type...that's been found (and is rare) on 21-D coins as well. Larry
Briggs confirmed it a couple years ago and I believe I have one as well. >>


That's news to me. I wasn't aware of branch mint D1 reverses. I guess I wasn't paying attention to the updates. Which VAM number is this? A 21-D with D1 reverse would be a significant coin just as the 21-P VAM 44 (infrequent reeding with D2 reverse) is.

Coxe

Yes Rob, I agree that Leroy's rarity estimates are nothing more than a most informed guess on his part. They aren't just hipshots as his record tends to be statistically pretty good, but there are expected discrepancies that are revealed in time. I tried to be clear in my post that it was not by rarity but using Leroy's assignments. Still, it is interesting that the R-7 list with the removal of 3 clearly dismissable entries does yield a list of 10 pretty good candidates. There are certainly some that turned out to be far rarer than Leroy estimated that augment the list as you also pointed out.

A fundamental problem in developing a "top" list with absolute rarity as a consideration is that it is doomed to fail with new discoveries. If someone found a clearly distinct new 8TF 1878 Morgan after so many have been discriminated for years now, it would be an ultrararity without question, as an example.

JadeRareCoin

Thank you everyone for all of your help! Great VAM web sites too!

Should I have PCGS slab the 15 pitted reverse 21-P dollars? They are all unc. I noticed that they are not all the same, due to different amounts and locations of the pitting. Or.....is it best to sell them raw on eBay?

messydesk

<< <i>Should I have PCGS slab the 15 pitted reverse 21-P dollars? They are all unc. I noticed that they are not all the same, due to different amounts and locations of the pitting. Or.....is it best to sell them raw on eBay? >>


There are a few different pitted reverses. The most frequently encountered are VAM 3C, 3E, 3F, and 41 (former 1A). The premium isn't especially high on any of them, although they are Hot 50 and Top 100 coins. Unless they'd grade MS64 (maybe 63 for the VAM 41), I don't think you'd recover the grading + attribution fees.