VAM help; can't find this coin listed--UPDATED NEW PHOTOS

RVDavis

I have not posted in over a year, been too busy to work on the VAMs. I came across this coin, and am having significant trouble identifying the VAM.

This is a 1904 O. Condition is MS 62 or so, with a very weak strike. Quite a bit of luster on the devices. I bought the coin because Liberty's lips are strongly clashed and visible to the naked eye. Here are the salient features:

Obverse
No doubling on either coin surface
Strong clash on Liberty's lips above and below
Strong clash on Liberty's chin
Strong clas on the lower part of Liberty's hair

Reverse
No clash
Die polish lines in feathers, wing, between the devices of the wreath
Leaf tip of third leaf group, left wreath, separated from branches and leaves
Two leafs separated from branch on fourth leaf group, left wreath
'e' in We filled with metal.

If anyone can give me an idea of this coin's classification I would appreciate it. I have both the fourht edition on the VAM book and all of Leroy's updates. Here are a few photographs



Rick

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DennisH

Rick:

I suspect you have a VAM 4B... which is an R-6 in Leroy Van Allen's update achives. Is there any signs of die pitting around the OL in Dollar?

RVDavis

Dennis:

Nothing much on DOLLAR except some extra material on the right side of the O. My reading on 4B is that there is doubling in the date that is why I did not select that classification. I would be very happy with 4B, R-6 coins are hard to find. Thanks for the suggestion.

Rick

DennisH

Rick:

I'm basing the 4B diagnosis on the massive die clashes around the mouth and the apparent lack of any other known 1904-O also having them... although I find it strange that Leroy's update doesn't say a word about those awesome die polishing lines in the eagle's tail. They are really something!

Or, could this be a new discovery?

MAD4MORGANS

According to Mark Kimpton's book, the VAM4B is known as the "Rusty Fish Hook" variety.

The "I" next to Liberty's neck looks like the barbed end of a fish hook. As well as pitting around the 'OL' of DOLLAR, the date shows significant doubling of the 9. The obverse also shows a large rim cud with extends from the B to the S of ' PLURIBUS' and a near 'Moustache' die break on the lip.

If yours is a VAM4B it is one of the more recent SUPER CD varieties with a 5-star rating (out of 5).

Can you see some of those features on your coin? Pics would be nice to see as well.

---edited

Like DennisH says, this may be a new discovery. The die polishing lines are really cool!!

RVDavis

Here are some additional photos. Date, DOLLAR and die polishing in the eagle's right wing. I don't see any clash on Liberty's neck and I looked for the cud but that is not present either. I have been collecting VAMs over 15 years, and this coin is very interesting. The 'horn' above Liberty's top lip, the die polishing all over the reverse and the over-polished wreath are pretty spectacular. I hope it is a new discovery, haven't had one of those although Leroy is using my 1896 P VAM 4 in the updates and next edition.

I appreciate the suggestions.

Rick

Coxe

I don't think it is a 4B. I can compare with mine later on as well as other 04-P clashed varieties. (I have 28A, maybe a 33 and some with no letter transfers.) Unless there is letter transfer, clashed denticles, or is a 4B, it probably has no special designation form Leroy. The clashes shown are typical of many undesignated and designated. The weak leaves are also common. The reverse polishing in the eagle are a little more promising. You might want to go over to ashmore.com and look through the update photos (unless you are on a dial-up). Just note that the sorting there is strictly ascii so the 1904-O will come before 1904-P in the left frame scroll.

RVDavis

Thanks for the suggestions, I have checked Ashmore and nothing there matches. I have quite a few coins with the clashes, none as marked as this obverse. The die polishing is extensive, again much more so than I have seen on other coins. I am surprised that this coin, if it is known, has not been designated as after reading every 1904 O VAM description, none of those coins appear to exhibit these stron errors on obverse and reverse.

DennisH

More and more this is sounding like a coin that needs to visit Leroy.

Coxe

The mint mark too is set right tilted right slightly. The C4c reverse (VAM-7) doesn't match it exactly and I can think of no other candidates. That is even before we bring up clashing. Again, I have quite a few different clashed 04-P Morgans. I'll try to check them sometime this weekend. Some are not designated and won't receive it because there is not letter transfer (usually at least the "n" of "In") and nothing even more remarkable.

RVDavis

Dennis:

I sent Leroy photos on Saturday, I will post if he wants to see it.

I took another look under the microscope this morning. I think perhaps this is an early die state of 4B; here at the base of Liberty's chin is a remnant, probably the N. Look at OL, there is material on both letters. Neither of these features match the 4B description exactly, and the date is not doubled but there are so many similarities I am wondering if this is simply an undocumented die state of 4B.

Rick

RVDavis

TT boards are busy this morning, anyone have thoughts?

MAD4MORGANS

Wow! The neck clash looks to be around 4-5 degrees of rotation for that clash. There is some ptting/die erosion around 'OL" that appears lesser in degree than the photos shown in Mark Kimpton's book.

Any letter transfer showing in Lberty's hair vee? At that degree of rotation you might have some clashed remnants of the 't' from IGWT.

Maybe an EDS but the neck clash shown in Mark Kimpton's book shows the clash at a lower position on Liberty's neckline.

lava

Not sure which vam it is, but the attributes pictured and described are fascinating. Nice coin. I especially like the lines going across the talifeathers.

RVDavis

I have been studying you die clash gauge for the last couple of hours, trying to identify the degree of rotation. That object in the vee of the neck is interesting, and I understand the location is farther up the neck than 4B. This is certainly a fun coin.

I can't find any rotation that matches the coin, and nothing in the hair vee. Still looking, I will post anything new. This clash die gauge is fantastic.

RVDavis

The photos do not show it, but there are very strong polishing lines in the eagle's wings as well. Like I said above, a really fun coin.

VamGuy

I believe this may be a polished down VAM 5A VLDS. I sent an identical coin to Leroy back in January. He explained that the doubling in the date had been polished away.

Check for the polishing in the bow and this die crack at STATES for confirmation...

RVDavis

That is a match on the die crack and the polish lines, so the reverse isC4a. I don't agree with the obverse designation, III-2-4; it is much closer to a III-2-3 which leads us right back to the 4B. III-2-4 does not list any die clash on the obverse. Thanks for the images, you definitley got the reverse designated for me.

VamGuy

Well, I don't have a close-up of the clashing on the obverse, but here is an image of the coin I sent to Leroy. Again, even with the obvious clash marks at Liberty's lips, he attributed it a VAM 5A.

RVDavis

Good clear photo. I will put up a total obverse picture in a bit; Liberty's neck is different on my coin. Thanks