Light and bright 1807 Bust half..... how you gonna grade it?

stman

I thought this would be a bit interesting. Yes I bought this. It's not white, and has good detail, and no problems.
Many of us know this year is tough to grade with weak strikes and such. I mainly bought this for how clean it is (not all beat up), and it has a lot of remaining luster.
In fact, you have to grade these by luster. The coin has complete cartwheel luster. It goes over Liberty, the stars and even fades to the fields a little bit. Reverse the same thing. So with this wear pattern..... How ya gonna grade it? Please, slap me but don't yell at me for acquiring such a coin.
I actually like it. Luster is just so precious on these. Obviously it's had a "wash" at some point, but it has not been cleaned.

goose3

soap and watered long ago? heh heh

XF40

ModernDollarNut

Can't help with grading but wonder if a trip to NGS for "conservation" could dislodge the residual gunk in the letters and shield? Rob

LanLord

I got me a real clean 07 bustie too. It's a shame to see something like that.

rsdoug81

Typical mushy strike. I say 40 reverse, 30 obverse. Overall I give it a VF35.

JRocco

Hey stman- you sure are liking those 07's
I would throw a 35 at her for a technical grade, but these are hard to grade because there are so many little variables that require you to have the coin in hand ( as you know ). It sure is a bright one
That dirt helps in my opinion from it looking like a bad cleaning job to a nice old coin. The stars still have decent detail so I am sticking to the 35 range.
I would keep her.

BigMoose

AU 50 because of the luster, but I think the services will hedge and call it 40 or 45.

NumisOxide

Nice looking half dollar.

VF35

braddick

"It had a wash at one point but it has not been cleaned."

Bear

XF-40

relayer

40

millennium

The shield on the reverse sure has a sharp strike compared to the rest of the coins' mushyness...is that typical?

stman

Compared to some 07's I own and see, this one really isn't that mushy. Just my opinion of course. Many times that left wing facing will have no detail whatsoever as struck. I'm not saying this piece is well struck, just not as weak as many I usually see out there. But yes, the shield could look sharper with a weak/mushy wing. I think it stands out more with the dirt in it as well. I'm surprised I like this coin, had it been another date I wouldn't have.

I guess I'm an 1807 "HOE." Heh

BigD5

I say that coin slabs out at xf/45.

CoinAddict

I say EF-45. Very nice detail. Now stick her in an album and let her retone.

Lahcoin

my guess is (thinking, thinking, thinking).........40. But hey, don't take my word for it....look how many posts I have

Longacre

AU-50

Lahcoin

Can I change my mind...of course I can...I'm a woman...it's the law

After rereading(is that a word?) the original description and pondering the earlier issued years, I'd agree with CoinAddict and bump up my opinion to 45.

SamByrd

vf35 nice coin

mozin

You say the coin "has complete cartwheel luster". NGC might give this one XF45, PCGS at least XF40. Without the great luster, the grades may drop 5 points.

Baley

Looks AU and if the luster is as nice as you say, maybe even 53 or something, otoh could be 45 or even 40 netted down for the warshing off as long as there's no hairlines. Nice coin, lighter than your usual taste but looks like good luster

here's one with a bit more wear than yours that i grade 25 or so, with a trace of luster

LindeDad

At PCGS think it would get a BB. Might have to go with NCS and take a shot at 30 to 40 range.

coinlieutenant

50.

JRocco

<< <i>At PCGS think it would get a BB. Might have to go with NCS and take a shot at 30 to 40 range. >>



Hi LindeDad, what do you see with this coin that would warrant a BB ? I see no reason at all this would bag.

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>At PCGS think it would get a BB. Might have to go with NCS and take a shot at 30 to 40 range. >>



Hi LindeDad, what do you see with this coin that would warrant a BB ? I see no reason at all this would bag. >>



The obvious cleaning.

morgannut2

If the luster is complete then AU53 to 55 - it was quickly dipped but still has enough dirt to be pretty to me.

Myqqy

I'm shocked that you would buy something so not-crusty.... but as long as you like it, that's all that matters, right?
I would guess xf40ish...

MikeKing

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>At PCGS think it would get a BB. Might have to go with NCS and take a shot at 30 to 40 range. >>



Hi LindeDad, what do you see with this coin that would warrant a BB ? I see no reason at all this would bag. >>



The obvious cleaning. >>



But what about all those other pcgs encapsulated coins that have been cleaned???

JRocco

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>At PCGS think it would get a BB. Might have to go with NCS and take a shot at 30 to 40 range. >>



Hi LindeDad, what do you see with this coin that would warrant a BB ? I see no reason at all this would bag. >>



The obvious cleaning. >>



Wouldn't that take out 3/4 of all the white slabbed Morgan's that have obviously had a bath ???

JRocco

Just as an added post for me on this coin.
The reasoning for my guess of a 35 on this piece ( and I might be totally wrong ) is not a dislike of this one. I find it hard with this type of pic to sometimes tell the difference between a weak strike (notorious on 07's) and good old honest wear.
One of the first things I look for are wear patterns. Look at the apparent wear pattern on her face, neck and bust. Looking at just the normal weak points for wear is a fruitless exercise on this pic, so I try to "see" wear patterns in normal places where wear occurs.
When looking at the reverse- I look for a pattern of wear--- the shield outline, leaf detail, talons, head etc. and try to see if it looks like the usual weakness or possibly good old wear on a slightly weak coin to start.

All this is sometimes fool-hearty on bust coinage with a pic, but my gut feeling on this one is a 35'ish coin with some nice even wear on a decently struck piece.

I think......

LindeDad

Hi LindeDad, what do you see with this coin that would warrant a BB ? I see no reason at all this would bag. >>

I don't think the graders would like the way the coin is bright clean and then spotty dirty in other areas. Yes most of these have been cleaned at one time just not this uneven. Might get the altered sufaces grade in my eye.

PerryHall

All the major grading services slab cleaned coins as long as they aren't harshly cleaned. This coin looks like it is on the border line and may slab on a good day.

mozin

stman,

How about giving us some more pictures of this coin using different light settings? I am not convinced this coin would BB.

stman

Some of y'all kinda funny. I ask what YOU gonna grade it, and some need to say what the services would do. (Is it impossible for folks to think for themselves these days?)
I say it has plenty of luster, yet some gonna question me on it. I say, the coin has had a "wash" yet, some still gonna question me on it.
When I say the coin has not been cleaned, meaning NO hairlines from a cleaning that someone has taken something abrasive to the coin,
some folks gonna question me on it. I hear ya, what the L do I know?

If anyone hasn't paid attention for some time, if I put a coin up here and ask for grading opinions..... many times it's to try and be
a bit educational that the services are all over the place on these. For me, grades don't mean anything to me these days. OK, carry on as this finally got entertaining!! BTW, The picture I have, is what I have. Sorry I'm not a photographer and can't give you different "Poses."

stman

Here is my opinion...... I believe even with this image one can tell it has quite a bit of luster (I could, and that's one of the reason's I bought it.)
It has too much of a wear pattern for me to say AU. I don't give my coins extra points for ownership. So I have to call it a strong XF.

Oh, as I mentioned the services are all over the place on these It's in an "OBH" PCGS VF-25 with bar code on the back. Thanks for all the participation folks!

Edit to add, with this wear pattern I'm temped to agree with JRocco at the 35 range. But, considering the luster is why I go strong XF.

Baley

I don't usually find "complete cartwheel luster" on VF bust coins, particularly pre-1815 ones.

I'm sticking with AU details, washed/dipped, EF+. I'd buy these in VF25 holders all day long and twice on Sunday.

stman

<< <i>I don't usually find "complete cartwheel luster" on VF bust coins >>



Baley, I've actually seen it quite a few times. In PCGS, NGC, and ANACS holders. And yes, I try and buy them. Can't agree with the AU details part.
Just personal preference is all. Now I have an AU details one in an XF holder. I don't think it has the luster for AU. Like I mentioned and you very well know, the services are all over the place on these. Sometimes to our benefit. Now the luster really doesn't cartwheel through the fields on this piece. But it does for sure cartwheel everywhere else. I've seen much less luster in AU holders..... and yes, even PCGS.

JRocco

Hey stman,
I can't believe PCGS called this coin a 25. I was being ultra conservative ( I thought) calling this one a 35 with the way you described the luster on her. It brings me back, over and over again, to Edgar Souders comment --- learn this series and rely on your own grading. There are a few people on these boards whose grading (with the coin in hand of course) I would feel comfortable with- you are one of them. If you had a coin in hand and told me you thought it was a 40 - I would pay you 40 money for it, no questions-------now if you told me you had a bust half coin in a slab that said 40 on it (PCGS/NGC or Barneys slabbing Co. Inc.) I would not just pay you 40 money for it without a ton of questions first..... I know you know what I mean here.
Part of what draws me to these coins is their uniqueness. These are not just cookie cutter coins like say....well I'm not going to say (but you know). The 07 and 08 have to be looked at differently than the next design series are looked at. These coins were minted with a screw press and no collars.... These coins have to be looked at individually. That is what I love about them. I do not think these coins should be graded by the novice collector nor the collector who is not willing to take the time to learn a little about them and only rely on the TPG's opinions.
I'll shut up now...

Nice coin stman---it found a good home with somone who appreciates her.

KurtHorn

I'm sorry, beat me up later... but, from these pics it screams cleaned at me. If you have it in hand and say it's not then,... I'll defer to you but,...

stman

OK, that did it..... I might have to send this in under "Presidential" review.

mozin

PCGS 25 retail money for an 1807 would be only around $325. I don't see any reason NGC would not give it at least XF40, which should be worth at least twice that figure.